Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,260
# 11
02-07-2013, 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
too many powers are cleared by too few powers.

what can be done to help this?
Its fine just as it is Mai...

What would you prefer some sort of stun wars. No thanks.

Sci is extremely powerful as it is... its funny you are the one always complaining about how weak sci is ... and I think we both know that is hardly the case. All you see in PvP anymore is escorts and sci ships ? why is that do you think.

People complaining that sci is weak are simply misguided. Sci is 100% fine just as it is, including resists to things like shield strip. Anyone that has in fact tried the skills people say are resisted to heavily or counted to easily, know (if they aren't terrible players) that they are in fact very powerful... timing debuffs / buffs is important... a system where no one has the right counters simply makes a brain dead system.... SOrry I don't want no Stun wars here... Cryptic may have lucked into a system where they have created a ton of counters, however compared to other MMOs I'll take this system where stuns are super powerful if you TIME them proper... over a click it when its up and win system anyway.
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,452
# 12
02-07-2013, 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Its fine just as it is
Tom has 9 pts in the T5 skill CMS, has 4x VR MKII CMS consoles, has the Jem Mk XII Deflector, has Bio-Space DOFF(s) for the recharge debuff, activates his T5 Rom ability, and uses SS3 in his Cmdr Sci BOFF slot.

Jerry has 0 pts in Sensors, no Sensor consoles, has no Sensor bonus on his Deflector, has no Rep, and uses ST1.

How exactly is it just fine as it is?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 13
02-07-2013, 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Tom has 9 pts in the T5 skill CMS, has 4x VR MKII CMS consoles, has the Jem Mk XII Deflector, has Bio-Space DOFF(s) for the recharge debuff, activates his T5 Rom ability, and uses SS3 in his Cmdr Sci BOFF slot.

Jerry has 0 pts in Sensors, no Sensor consoles, has no Sensor bonus on his Deflector, has no Rep, and uses ST1.

How exactly is it just fine as it is?
Using ST means giving up ET and TT for the duration of the cooldown -- the clear comes with an opportunity cost.

The only clears that are a real problem IMO are the ones that are likely to be spammed in rotation anyway -- mostly TT. Not every ship even carries ST and ET (ET seems to be the sole domain of cruisers) and they are very likely to be used to help a teammate rather than as a self-clear. TT is kind of a special problem because it's a strong defensive buff anyway, and the other ensign tac powers aren't generally worth taking (especially on a ship using cannons) so many ships will have 2 copies of it.

Honestly I'd rather have clears be too common rather than not common enough though. Any MMO with successful PvP has very short duration CC and common clears with relatively shot (30 sec to a minute) cooldowns. The challenge then becomes to make players use their clears early.

I play a science ship too, and it's fun when I can occasionally keep someone locked down until they die, but if I could do it successfully any more often it would drive players out of the game. CC has more potential for driving players to quitting than any other part of the game.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,793
# 14
02-07-2013, 08:49 AM
Yeah and TT can be fixed by reducing the debuff clear to 5 seconds.


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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,452
# 15
02-07-2013, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
Using ST means giving up ET and TT for the duration of the cooldown -- the clear comes with an opportunity cost.
You've got abilities at various levels of recharge - some good to go, some nearly ready to go, some in the middle, and some just used. You get hit by SNB+VM+SS+APB+BTE.

Which would you use first or wish you had to use first? ET, ST, or TT?
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 434
# 16
02-07-2013, 09:18 AM
I'm more concerned by the extremes in this game. Almost everything is either too good or too weak. It's off or it's on. I'd like to see a system that establishes a floor and a ceiling for any abilities effect first, then figure out how to cram abilities and their modifications within those constraints.

Trade holds and lengthy disables for slows and interrupts (stuns) but also and no more immunity. It's no more fun being completely immobilized than it is having abilities be completely ignored.

For Attack Pattern Omega, replace immunity with a temporary boost directly applied to the player's Inertial Dampeners stat. Sure, some of the resistance mechanics in the skill tree still need a bit of fine tuning. Inertial Dampeners don't seem to help with the hold and turn rate debuff from Tractor Beams but it's incredibly powerful against Tractor Beam Repulsors, for example. Gravity well is really nice against pets but a player can largely ignore it before they even have to consider popping an ability (of course, I don't want to go back to the time when a gravity well or two left entire teams bouncing off of each other in the middle either).

I know it was a bit controversial when it proposed a while ago, but the idea of decoupling defense from movement speed is an interesting one. If decoupling the two is too extreme, what would happen if they simply reduced the importance of movement speed on defense? I think the bottom line was that being held and disabled is not equally easy to overcome across all classes which creates a pretty difficult situation to balance. Rather than "nerfing" abilities it might be more prudent to adjust the underlying mechanics that are responsible for such extreme conditions (worthless science skills versus immunity, passive innate spike healing and ridiculous critical strikes on defenseless targets).

If we could do something about the extremes then it should be easier to balance everything from damage to healing to crowd control.
__________________________________________
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It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,452
# 17
02-07-2013, 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
I'm more concerned by the extremes in this game. Almost everything is either too good or too weak. It's off or it's on.

/snip

If we could do something about the extremes then it should be easier to balance everything from damage to healing to crowd control.
For pretty much everything in the game.

Damage? Yep.
Healing? Yup.
Buffs? Yep.
Debuffs? Yup.
Cleanses? Yep.

It's Star Yo-Yo: Online...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 18
02-07-2013, 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Tom has 9 pts in the T5 skill CMS, has 4x VR MKII CMS consoles, has the Jem Mk XII Deflector, has Bio-Space DOFF(s) for the recharge debuff, activates his T5 Rom ability, and uses SS3 in his Cmdr Sci BOFF slot.

Jerry has 0 pts in Sensors, no Sensor consoles, has no Sensor bonus on his Deflector, has no Rep, and uses ST1.

How exactly is it just fine as it is?
I don't think Scrambles is the best example to pick here... in fact Scrambles seems to be one of those powers (like VM) that radically overcompensates for the less appealing offensive abilities.

What I call the ability efficiency ratio is actually the opposite for Scrambles, and very much in its favor:

a) Someone cranks up a ~30+ second Scrambles, it costs one ability cooldown
b) To clear the five players affected now costs five Sci Teams. So as an ability it's 400% more effective than the cooldown it cost to use. (Arguably much more since Sci Team puts teams onto the global and can leave players extremely vulnerable)

I'm not saying Scrambles needs a nerf, but it is a good example of how some abilities are a no-brainer because of just how powerful and efficient they are; you could compare SS to EPtS in this regard, since both do so much and cost so little. I mean at least getting EWP to do the same work requires you to move around a little.

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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 19
02-07-2013, 09:29 AM
In that example Tom looks like he put too many of his eggs in one basket.



I'm against Tiered cleanses:

1) I think this adds an unneeded and not really fun layer of added complexity. Complexity for complexities sake is not something I'm really interested in. This also pushes the barrier for entry into PvP even higher than it is.

2) How does this affect the PUG group, where you can't even get a basic heal or ES? Now you have to know which particular tier of debuff you've been hit with and hope someone on your team actually slotted the appropriate tier to counter it.

3) UI: On my 24 inch widescreen at high resolution the buff/debuff icons are frustratingly tiny, and generally give no indication of which particular version of X ability you've been debuffed with - without actually mouse hovering over it. Needing to mouse hover over an Icon once you've already been disabled slowing your reaction time even further? Again, I'm against this.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-07-2013 at 09:34 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,452
# 20
02-07-2013, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I don't think Scrambles is the best example to pick here...
Yeah, I was caught up in the 1v1 thought process with Tom and Jerry and not thinking that clearly through. Even with VM, as you pointed out, DOFF'd it can spread - so that's not going to work for the scenario I was trying to present. One could even say that APB works in that fashion, since you can FAW/CSV/TS it.

I appear to have used up too many braincells looking at how turn can stack in the other thread...

...think I'm going to bow out of this discussion just reiterating what's been said about this being Star Yo-Yo: Online.

Thanks, shim.

edit: But first this, going back to my tiered thing earlier and folks having said they're against that.

I'd be against a strict tiered system as well, but that's why I didn't present that - I presented a gradual system reflecting potential differences in abilities.

Needing to have Cleanse3 to deal with Stuff3 would be...too much to ask of how STO's setup - it would be way too radical of a change to pretty much everything. It's a lot easier to slot Stuff3 than Cleanse3. On the other hand, it's silly that Cleanse1 can cleanse Stuff3 as well as Cleanse3 can, imho...

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-07-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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