Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,784
# 21
02-07-2013, 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Tom has 9 pts in the T5 skill CMS, has 4x VR MKII CMS consoles, has the Jem Mk XII Deflector, has Bio-Space DOFF(s) for the recharge debuff, activates his T5 Rom ability, and uses SS3 in his Cmdr Sci BOFF slot.

Jerry has 0 pts in Sensors, no Sensor consoles, has no Sensor bonus on his Deflector, has no Rep, and uses ST1.

How exactly is it just fine as it is?
Tom shouldn't have been stupid enough to blow his best debuff when his target obviously had no team cool downs... Next time Tom should wait for Jerry to use a tac team... or sci team... that way he knows he won't counter with out team help.

Yes its 100% fine as is.

Next time when Tom doesn't play like a button smashing monkey Jerry will regret having timed his counters poorly and will suffer through the annoyance Tom will slap on him before respawning him.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,387
# 22
02-07-2013, 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Tom shouldn't have been stupid enough to blow his best debuff when his target obviously had no team cool downs... Next time Tom should wait for Jerry to use a tac team... or sci team... that way he knows he won't counter with out team help.

Yes its 100% fine as is.

Next time when Tom doesn't play like a button smashing monkey Jerry will regret having timed his counters poorly and will suffer through the annoyance Tom will slap on him before respawning him.
I'm not even going to make a simian joke. Although I'd dearly love to. What you've said is in fact true. And really a fully charged smack down capable Alpha is 100% wasted if TT pops up on the target so at the LEAST we can say that it is consistent. And that's very good that it is consistent. This was a key feature of a game that was designed around a concept of attack/counter. Never was it intended that ships would instapop. Always it was intended that there would be at least some discrete measure of time to use a counter, and only if by FAILING to do so for some reason would a ship be in mortal peril.

Just by way of discussion though, and to show one way that may satisfy the OP's wish. Take sensor scan. Okay it debuffs the targets resistance. If the target puts up delta, that doesn't clear the sensor scan, but it does have the net effect of offsetting some of it by boosting resistances. So some things in the game already work this way. It isn't often considered to be the same, but essentially boosting shield resistance is a very common and clear method of a graduated response to weapons damage.

And there would be MYRIAD ways to make teams do the same sort of thing. Just there isn't a clear reason to do so. Initially using a team was meant to be a hefty choice. Remember, if you clear that VM you're now very vulnerable to Boarding Party 3! So it's a cheesy easy way to clear things, but by doing so you do leave yourself vulnerable to the other 2 classes.

Of course, that was before we thought smashing the cooldowns into nothing was a clever idea.

Cheers and happy doing whatever it is you going to do!
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,155
# 23
02-07-2013, 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post

The TT spam cleanse of APB and the spammable HE destroying the DPS of an insane plasma build...well, those kind of tick me off. Can have a blast in PvE, but that fix doesn't cut it in the long run. With a mix of Hyper, Omega, Plasma Torps, Plasma Mines, EWP, Plasma Energy Weapons, and using the various Tac abilities for them - it's insane how many different types of Plasma DoTs you can stack and how high some of those stacks will go. All of it...poof...gone with a HE1.
This is exactly why hazards is not op and needs to be left alone due to how op plasma would be with all the dot stacking. It would be way too easy to kill people with their shields completely up if hazards was nerfed in anyway. If anything it needs to be beefed up so it properly clears warp plasma for the whole duration rather when it is just activated.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,046
# 24
02-07-2013, 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
This is exactly why hazards is not op and needs to be left alone due to how op plasma would be with all the dot stacking. It would be way too easy to kill people with their shields completely up if hazards was nerfed in anyway. If anything it needs to be beefed up so it properly clears warp plasma for the whole duration rather when it is just activated.
But that's the thing - it's Yo-Yo.

Either HE's "useless" or Plasma's "useless"... there should be some happy middleground.

Cause even with the HE thing - I should have done the Plasma thing on a Sci. SNB the HE and debuff the recharge so it's that much longer before it can be used again. ST that? Then Bio-Space SS to debuff the recharge after ST wears off. That's still going to be sitting inside the normal CD for the HE. Course, then there's the dual AtB HE - where the HE's not healing as much, but it's clearing the PDoTs faster.

Almost everything in the game is at some extreme, as previously mentioned by another poster...

But in looking at it, it can't just be a case of making X change to HE or Y change to PDoTs. X and Y have to be made while looking at both HE and PDoTs. And even there, there's more than just the HE and PDoTs to consider when looking at it...

Cryptic keeps lumping more and more complexity - more variables - on top of something that's poorly balanced to begin with...it only gets worse, will only get worse.

Balance is an illusion. Sometimes your broken crap will kill the guy - sometimes the guy's broken crap will kill you. That's balance in STO.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-07-2013 at 11:05 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 25
02-07-2013, 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Its fine just as it is Mai...

What would you prefer some sort of stun wars. No thanks.

Sci is extremely powerful as it is... its funny you are the one always complaining about how weak sci is ... and I think we both know that is hardly the case. All you see in PvP anymore is escorts and sci ships ? why is that do you think.

People complaining that sci is weak are simply misguided. Sci is 100% fine just as it is, including resists to things like shield strip. Anyone that has in fact tried the skills people say are resisted to heavily or counted to easily, know (if they aren't terrible players) that they are in fact very powerful... timing debuffs / buffs is important... a system where no one has the right counters simply makes a brain dead system.... SOrry I don't want no Stun wars here... Cryptic may have lucked into a system where they have created a ton of counters, however compared to other MMOs I'll take this system where stuns are super powerful if you TIME them proper... over a click it when its up and win system anyway.

I actually see a fix to this being a nerf to science since 50% of the cleanse powers currently are science skills used by 90% of the players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 26
02-07-2013, 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Tom shouldn't have been stupid enough to blow his best debuff when his target obviously had no team cool downs... Next time Tom should wait for Jerry to use a tac team... or sci team... that way he knows he won't counter with out team help.

Yes its 100% fine as is.

Next time when Tom doesn't play like a button smashing monkey Jerry will regret having timed his counters poorly and will suffer through the annoyance Tom will slap on him before respawning him.
Going on that logic no power would ever have a duration longer then 15 seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 27
02-07-2013, 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
I actually see a fix to this being a nerf to science since 50% of the cleanse powers currently are science skills used by 90% of the players.
That's not how the game is designed in my opinion (No idea what the devs think).

"Science" skills are not the sole province of "Science Ships" or "Science Captains" only, typically speaking, the upper tier ones are their sole province.

The same goes for Eng & Tac.


The lower tiers are effectively all shared/common/borderline must have abilities for all ships/captains, the upper tier ones are where the ship classes find the sharpest definition of what their ships can do.

Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that as upper tier options can change your lower tier options, but that's how I see the design from a macro view.



So what you describe isn't a nerf to "science", it's a nerf to the potential science functions on every vessel type.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-07-2013 at 11:06 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 28
02-07-2013, 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
That's not how the game is designed in my opinion (No idea what the devs think).

"Science" skills are not the sole province of "Science Ships" or "Science Captains" only, typically speaking, the upper tier ones are their sole province.

The same goes for Eng & Tac.


The lower tiers are effectively all shared/common/borderline must have abilities for all ships/captains, the upper tier ones are where the ship classes find the sharpest definition of what their ships can do.

Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that as upper tier options can change your lower tier options, but that's how I see the design from a macro view.



So what you describe isn't a nerf to "science", it's a nerf to the potential science functions on every vessel type.
How so? Right now the hazzard emitters and science team are the 2 powers I mentioned. Everyone uses them. Take some of the "clearing" capabilities and make brand new powers that can be used to clear specific things and remove them from the powers the currently are tied to. Example- hazzard emitters putting out plasma fire. Why isn't there an engineering ability that does this that isn't engineering team? "Emergency extinguishers" sounds like a good name for a power that would do this.

Think outside the box
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,735
# 29
02-07-2013, 11:37 AM
So I guess cross healing support from Escorts is dead now with those changes, eh? My HE won't clear that one healer stuck in EWP.

Meh it's too messy, this game is already hanging on by a very thin thread, and people are proposing radical changes that will have an as of yet unknown effect on teams.

I appreciate the intent of this thread, but the ideas go too far.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 30
02-07-2013, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
How so? Right now the hazzard emitters and science team are the 2 powers I mentioned. Everyone uses them.
Yes, everyone using them is exactly why they are a nerf to all ships and not "science".


Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
Take some of the "clearing" capabilities and make brand new powers that can be used to clear specific things and remove them from the powers the currently are tied to. Example- hazzard emitters putting out plasma fire. Why isn't there an engineering ability that does this that isn't engineering team? "Emergency extinguishers" sounds like a good name for a power that would do this.
We have engineering powers that solve other issues, such as emergency power skills that bring systems back online.


"Emergency Extinguishers" sounds like a 1 dimensional cleanse ability if all it does is put out plasma fires and any plasma fire clones.

I think the game is better off with specific debuffs and general use cleanses.

Making "specific cleanses" seems like it could quickly border on the ridiculous, needing a specific cleanse for every single specific debuff type.


The vast majority of powers in this game are multifunctional, and I much prefer them that way personally.

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