Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 101
02-11-2013, 01:25 PM
There are definitely some problematic DOffs but I don't think Damage Control is one of them. It helps make a whole class of escorts viable and its applications for larger ships aren't really gamey or particularly powerful (what, do you really want to free up an Ensign slot on a snoozer?)

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,101
# 102
02-11-2013, 01:52 PM
Well let us do some fast math for how much pressure damage would be needed to make my previously posted ship sweat.

I regen 164 shield average per facing at 47% average shield resist plus taking into account the 5% ignored by shield. About 1,300 DPS would be needed just to counter it's own abilities. That number might seem awfully low and easy to hit with any ship but that is just the shield and assuming each and every shot hits. You need to double that to deal any meaningful hull damage as well once again assuming every shot hits. And it is a defiant, about as untanky of an escort as one can find.

And I know everyone claims their cruiser deals 9k or what have you DPS in STFs but I can guarantee any beam boat will have issues putting out 3k DPS against an escort in PvP that is not disabled.

The only way to kill a decently built player ship is either a crap ton of damage within seconds or disables to get a few extra seconds to kill it.

This issue also heavily effects PvE as everything is either face-roll easy or say hello to being One Shotted. Their is no middle ground there either.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 103
02-11-2013, 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Spike damage isn't enough either. It's the combination of spike damage with the gap created by Sci - that allows for the kill.

That gap is not very large, you only have a short period of time in which to avail yourself of a kill before either the player themselves or their team is able to close the gap up
Good summary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Hell, a place for Rainbow Builds, eh?
No, because this would prime enemy Elite Fleet shields vs. too many different damage types.




Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
Reduce Spike Damage.
Now Hold on! Before you grab the pitch forks look at the next point. Also, realize, that some where between Pre-F2P and Post-F2P Cannon Damage/Dual Heavy Cannon Damage might have gotten an unexpected boost which could explain why Dual Heavy Cannons are now the Go to weapons.
They are the "go to" weapons, simply because the bar for resistance and healing has been raised so high most other forms of damage have been drowned out already.

DHCs are still performing, but the base level they have to break through has also been raised.

Even then in some cases raw 4xDHCs x2 Escorts can still quite literally bounce off of targets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Well, if we expect the devs to do something about the problem, then they should have a chance to know what pressure damage they need to make possible so that it returns, right? And for that, we need precise minimum numbers.
That's great, let us know when you do some testing to provide "precise minimum numbers" for 5v5 variable team setups, with variable ship, captain, BOFF slotting, weapon slotting, etc.

It would be a great service to the PvP community, thanks for volunteering.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-11-2013 at 06:21 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,294
# 104
02-11-2013, 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
No, because this would prime enemy Elite Fleet shields vs. too many different damage types.
I tend to think of the kill as taking out the hull, not taking out the shields and then hull.

The spike guys are already going to be capping the Fleets against any incoming energy damage - the rainbow guys eventually capping the Fleets against other damage won't really matter if they're there for their procs. That damage isn't getting done anyway.

If you're trying to capitalize the spike vs. the Fleets, then you're spike guys aren't firing their energy type nor is anybody else...to try to get that damage in before the Fleets cap, no?

If your non-spike guys are running x/25 Wep while focusing on control, debuff, cleanse, healing - wouldn't that open the door for them to run procs - whether they were looking at disruptor, phaser, polaron, tetryon, etc - depending on what the spike guys were going to be running? They're not really there for their damage anyway - sure, damage helps - but they're not really there for that are they?

That's along the lines of what I was thinking when I said that... that either the Fleets would be capped already or they'd be running some other rainbow group that didn't affect the spike folks.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Temporary, Sentinel-class Star Cruiser
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,483
# 105
02-11-2013, 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I tend to think of the kill as taking out the hull, not taking out the shields and then hull.

The spike guys are already going to be capping the Fleets against any incoming energy damage - the rainbow guys eventually capping the Fleets against other damage won't really matter if they're there for their procs. That damage isn't getting done anyway.

If you're trying to capitalize the spike vs. the Fleets, then you're spike guys aren't firing their energy type nor is anybody else...to try to get that damage in before the Fleets cap, no?

If your non-spike guys are running x/25 Wep while focusing on control, debuff, cleanse, healing - wouldn't that open the door for them to run procs - whether they were looking at disruptor, phaser, polaron, tetryon, etc - depending on what the spike guys were going to be running? They're not really there for their damage anyway - sure, damage helps - but they're not really there for that are they?

That's along the lines of what I was thinking when I said that... that either the Fleets would be capped already or they'd be running some other rainbow group that didn't affect the spike folks.
I'd thought about this as well, but not all procs are equal. If anything I'd mix phased polaron, and another 2 proc weapon. I don't currently have any but the phased polaron, but thought of disrupter/tetryon combo as well (assuming this is a combo I haven't kept up w/all the dual proc options).

I'd stay away from plasma since in theory the proc DoT could CritH and trigger a passive repair. Along these lines I've thought about avoiding CritH weapons for the type of build you're talking about. Also, I haven't tested to see if DoT hull damage triggers both shield and hull repairs or just the Hull repair (via Embassy console).

I don't have the fleet shields I'd assume phased polaron would only resists polarons, but I don't know that and if using mutltiple proc weapons triggers multiple resist types you'd only use 2 and leave the spiker w/plasma I guess.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,294
# 106
02-11-2013, 03:45 PM
Since the damage on the dual procs is only supported by a single console, would think that only that damage is counted against Fleet shields.

Hrmm, but this did help me see more of what you were saying about the passive/passive proc healing. A person gets the same heal from a x/25 Weapon Power Turret Crit as they would from a 125/100 DHC Crit.

Perhaps those passives should work more like RSP - so they would heal based on the amount of damage instead of the flat heals.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Temporary, Sentinel-class Star Cruiser
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,828
# 107
02-11-2013, 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
There are definitely some problematic DOffs but I don't think Damage Control is one of them. It helps make a whole class of escorts viable and its applications for larger ships aren't really gamey or particularly powerful (what, do you really want to free up an Ensign slot on a snoozer?)
Sure Dmg control is an issue... as you just said... it makes whole classes of escorts viable ?
Why is that... lol

Escorts where never intended to be the tank class... why should you be able to keep one copy of EPTS 2 up 100% of the time.

As far as snoozer builds... ya snoozers where already tanky... and for cruisers Aux to bat ends up making more sense anyway. Still it would have been a laughable idea to run 2 copies of EPTS 3 at one time... I in fact laughed at people that did it... now of course running ONE copy and using doffs to keep it up all the time... freeing up a Lt. Commander slot for more heals.... ya I'm sure that hasn't effected balance at all.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,483
# 108
02-11-2013, 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Since the damage on the dual procs is only supported by a single console, would think that only that damage is counted against Fleet shields.

Hrmm, but this did help me see more of what you were saying about the passive/passive proc healing. A person gets the same heal from a x/25 Weapon Power Turret Crit as they would from a 125/100 DHC Crit.

Perhaps those passives should work more like RSP - so they would heal based on the amount of damage instead of the flat heals.
It gets back to not all procs being equal. Lets assume b/c it's PvP there's going to be enough hits that the repair proc will always trigger shortly after it's cooldown expires. At that point is it even worth it to use Plasma w/only 25 weapon power since it's proc is fairly small and w/modest resists the passive hull repair/regen may not only absorb the plasma DoT proc, but be a net gain. Arguably, if under FF any xtra damage will help, but imo there are better weapon procs.

Conversely, imo the power drain/system drop offs of phased polarons would be worth it even w/the repairs. The big caveat here is how many human Boffs et al the target is using to keep system online passively, ie next to no down time even when it procs.

Tbh, I think just Tetryon (not Tet Glider) would be resistable enough that even w/heavy Flow cap investment there's a net gain. This again gets into are there better options when trying to pile on. Imo, Tetryon is better when used w/Tet Glider and high weapon power.

Disrupter, this can be a good debuff. It's cleared by TT irrc therefore you can't count on it procing unless many players are using it during the TT downtime window.

Tbh, even for Tac Escort oriented builds, I've been debating dropping rear turrets and/or using a different BO/DBB weapon type from DHCs.

Regarding Alpha strikes/timed debuffs in general, if they really want that out of the game then they should just mega boost buffers, reduce repairs greatly or make them out of combat only w/slight regen while under attack, and make the "Tall Ships" style they talked about in the beginning.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,527
# 109
02-11-2013, 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
They are the "go to" weapons, simply because the bar for resistance and healing has been raised so high most other forms of damage have been drowned out already.

DHCs are still performing, but the base level they have to break through has also been raised.

Even then in some cases raw 4xDHCs x2 Escorts can still quite literally bounce off of targets.
I'm not one normally to say something like this.. but honestly.. I think I need to..

L2R

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
Severely reduce healing and resists with considerations towards a team environment.

That's right.. in a 5 man environment healing could be toned down considerably. This could be anywhere from Reducing the heals you get from the Tier 3 Team abilities, to reducing the resists Hazard and Polarized hull gives, to even reducing how much healing is given based on Aux power for Hazard Emitters and Aux to Structural. Same could be said for Transfer Shield Strength and Emergency Power to Shields. Let's face it, in PVE, the way it's balanced right now, you need Crazy amounts of healing and resists in some fights (Boss fights mostly) in order to both survive and take down said bosses. In PVP.. you don't. Your fighting each other and the most hull a ship will have is close to 60k.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,294
# 110
02-11-2013, 04:59 PM
Well, that shows how unobservant I can be at times. TT clears disruptor procs? I would have never guessed that. It's not a tactical debuff. If anything, perhaps ET or HE...but TT?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Temporary, Sentinel-class Star Cruiser
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