Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,197
# 61
02-08-2013, 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
It'd be helpful if you re-stated what you believe the primary cause(s) to be. I believe it's Resists + Regen that you have a concern with, but I think you can state your case more clearly than I can regurgitate it.

And I'll re-state the wrench that I'll throw in the gears ... massive alpha strikes and SNB coordination are very real concerns on the opposite end of this spectrum. If we toned down Resists and Regen, it would only serve to amplify these tactics and further destabilize many PvP encounters.
In combat mechanics their are two opposing styles and factors. Pressure vs Sustain and Burst vs Buffer.

Pressure: A sustained offensive with the objective of wearing down/weakening an opponents defenses. IE Damage Per Second
Sustain: Ability to repair/heal/avoid a sustained level of damage. IE Healsand Regen.
Burst: Maximizing offense in the shortest time period to overwhelm an opponents defenses. IE Alpha Strikes
Buffer: Amount of damage one can take without reacting before defeat. IE Hit Points.

The issue STO has is the over reliance on everyone having a ridiculously high amount of resistance. Resistance increases both the buffer ability and the sustain at the same exact time. This makes it very difficult to balance the two opposing concepts.

This is basic stuff. Shields with a high capacity are of the buffer style, shields with high regeneration rates are of the sustain style. Problem is neither of those matter nearly as much in this game compared to the importance of having high resistance rates which drastically improve both. That is why even at 125 Auxiliary Power a single Emergency Power to Shields will heal more shielding than a Transfer Shield Strength of the same rank. The increased shield power combined with the regeneration rate increase will restore more effective shield than the transfer shield strength ability will because it grants less resistance. And that is ignoring the heal portion of EPtS! That is seriously messed up!



I do not PvP much but even in PvE the sustain is unreal. This is my Fleet Defiant's important numbers and answers Bort's question, and end are details for determining those numbers.

Shields
Peak Resist: 53% / 62.5% vs Plasma
Typical Resist: 47%
Capacity: 8234
Average Restore: 164 shield per second per facing

Hull
Peak Resist: 38.3 energy / 48.1 kinetic
Unbuffed Resist: 22.2 energy / 38.1 kinetic
Average Restore: 386 per second solely abilities

Miscellaneous not Accounted for Above
- Shield is Maco so 5% additional ignored shield damage and resist might apply to hull
- 3x Shield Distro Doffs grant 50% chance at 2582 shield restore every minute
- Bonus defense stays at 30% with yo-yo maneuver alone, peaks at 95% full speed
- Hull repair rate rarely goes below 30% typically stays much much higher

Answers to Question
What do I sacrifice to have that much sustain?
Very little. Three doffs is about it their is nothing else to use for my low rank sci/eng abilities aside from heals.

I know the heal/second doesn't look that impressive. But that is average the burst is significantly higher and both are significantly higher when you take my resistances into account.

The Build Defenses
Maco Mk 12 set
Emergency power to Shields 1
Transfer Shield Strength 1
Hazard Emitters 2
Auxiliary to Structure 1

Maths
.286 shield power /w EPTS1
.313 shiled power /w EPTS1 + Maco Power
.18 EPTS1
.075 TSS /w Maco Power
.1 Maco

56 passive regen/sec without EPTS 1/3rd of time
80 passive regen/sec with EPTS 2/3rd of time
34 heal/sec average EPTS1
58 heal/sec average TSS1

209 heal/sec average HE2
177 heal/sec average Aux2Strut1
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,197
# 62
02-08-2013, 08:18 PM
Realized I forgot to make a suggestion, lol.

Nerf Resistances
Seriously an escort running around with 50% shield resistance by itself is silly. Simple fix is to bump EPTS up a tier, better fix is to nerf majority of big resistance items/abilities by a small amount like EPtS, Shield Power, Maco/Fleet Shields, etc.

Increase HPs
The 10% buff from fleet is not enough. Shield facings under 10k should not be seen at endgame. This should be combined with the resistance nerf to maintain or slightly increase average effective health of ships.

Nerf Mary Sue Abilitites/Things
Shield power grants increased regen and resistance. Move one of them. EPtS heals and increases resist in addition to shield power and cleanse effects. Nearly every heal increases resists that is bad especially since many can have nearly 100% up-time.

End Results?
Sustain goes down, buffer goes up, current EHPs stay the same.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 63
02-08-2013, 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Yet, he did. This added survivalbilty adds so much longevity to escorts, and virtually nothing to other ships as they can simply burst them down.
Anything the escort can do survivability wise the other ships do in greater measure.


If you think they can "simply burst them down" you are really mistaken.


I guess it's fun to nerfmonger on escorts in every thread though?

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,197
# 64
02-08-2013, 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Anything the escort can do survivability wise the other ships do in greater measure.


If you think they can "simply burst them down" you are really mistaken.


I guess it's fun to nerfmonger on escorts in every thread though?
Actually in a PvE sense it is one of the things that skews escort balance.

IF the primary factor in a ship's resistance capabilities lies in its equipment and utilizing low tier boff skills that allows the difference between the EHP, or buffer tank capability, between the escort and other ships to become so small it is insignificant. Do the same with sustainability and once again the issue arises.

Yes it is true a cruiser can pack more resistance and sustain than an escort, but how much more? And at what opportunity cost? When an escort uses an ensign ability like EPtS 1 to hit 45% shield resist their is very little opportunity cost. Yet when the cruiser uses EPtS 3, which mind you one of the very few ways for it to gain more resistance and establish a significant difference in EHP or buffer, he does pay a large opportunity cost.

*edit addon*
I mean let us look at what the major changes in current game are from pre-F2P

*Maco/Fleet shields granting strong passive resistance
*Shield power resistance granting increased
*Increased ship power levels
*Additional passive healing added primarily via Doffs
*Favored shield type becoming Resilient

Has damage gone up by a large amount? Not really other than escorts have more time on target. The major change is how easy it has become to get high damage mitigation numbers with little effort.

Last edited by bareel; 02-08-2013 at 11:32 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 65
02-09-2013, 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Anything the escort can do survivability wise the other ships do in greater measure.


If you think they can "simply burst them down" you are really mistaken.


I guess it's fun to nerfmonger on escorts in every thread though?
I'm not sure other ships can practically have higher survivability.

Except for healers focusing on themselves instead of their team and zombie cruisers who aren't either DPSing or healing, other ships really aren't any more durable than escorts. All of the bread-and butter defenses are in ensign and LT slots, so everyone has access to them.

I don't think this thread is really about nerfing escorts, it's just pointing out that non-escorts can't do damage. I don't think anyone is even asking for non-escorts to do equal or competitive damage -- it just feels silly that unless you're using DHCs damage doesn't get close to punching through shields no matter how long you take. You essentially have to wear down all 4 shield facings, and by that time they usually heal.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 66
02-09-2013, 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
No. "Moving towards" in the "everyone will eventually have T4 passives and access to elite fleet shields" way. Things will get progressively worse as more and more players/characters gain access to these things.

So far, Elite Shields are not widespread and there are probably still lots of characters without T4 rep out there (at least I still have many of them). Look at how often you see the transphasic torp combo or other "build of the month" things - even the players who are sometimes belittled as "PVErs" aren't stupid, they notice trends and jump on the bandwagon and these healing/resist passives/gear will see (more) widespread use eventually.


They are more widespread than you think, as people are selling them now, just get an invite to another tier 4 fleet pay them ECs and they give you access to fleet store.

I can tell when someone especially in an escort is using them in pvp.

Lastnight 2 of my fleetmates jumped in the arena with 2 randoms, me in my bug and my friend in fleet patrol i think we jumped a guy in another bug and both of us could not kill him, i couldnt hardly scratch his shields, and i have high DPS so did my friend, and i hit the guy with tachyon mines,,tractor beam, with two of us slamming on him and he still killed me then my friend after i died. Something is wrong with that picture
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 67
02-09-2013, 05:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i dont understand why people think this is a problem, this is a valid tactic, and with speedy targets like escorts being so hard to hit and pin down already, there is more then enough resistance to this tactic already. its current functionality is barley good enough as it is, with the placates breaking holds too. long as pet spam tractors are BS though, but player originated holds are not, thats a TSS or HE or something your giving up for that.



even in pug vs pug, non DHC damage is useless. its all actually the same fruit right now
ugh i hate those stupid runabout pets with the tractor spam and chroniton
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 68
02-09-2013, 05:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Just duelled a bud who flew a JHAS with elite adaptive shields res A type. In the course of near 20 mins he did roughly 755k healing and 250k dmg. I was flying my Wells, with a 6 beam boat, 3 photonic ships, a warbird while spamming VM3, SNB, Heavy Grav beam, and PSW on him, not to mention i backstepped when i could to hurry the skills back. But did he go down?

NO. Simply no! Was i close? Yes. But the passives, and active cloack ability bought him time to escape and heal up, and he tanked all that damage really fine thanks to the shields.

Was i rather upset when i left the match? You bet i was! Without those shields and the horrific rep passsives +1 space active he would have never survived.

Yet, he did. This added survivalbilty adds so much longevity to escorts, and virtually nothing to other ships as they can simply burst them down.


lol wonder if thats the same bug i just played in arena lastnight?

people are right,,what happens when everyone is at tier 5 omega/rom and has elite fleet shields? We just shoot each other for an hour??
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 69
02-09-2013, 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Actually in a PvE sense it is one of the things that skews escort balance.
This thread isn't about PvE.

"Pressure" damage doesn't even exist in PvE, it's just sustained DPS at that point - and NPCs have not suddenly gained several new sources of passive healing and resistance.




Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
stuff
.
I don't disagree with some of the things you posted, but please first go back and re-read the post I quoted and was responding to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx
This added survivalbilty adds so much longevity to escorts, and virtually nothing to other ships as they can simply burst them down.
This, is not true.

All ships have had their passive healing and resistances pushed to extreme levels.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-09-2013 at 05:53 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 70
02-09-2013, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
This, is not true.

All ships have had their passive healing and resistances pushed to extreme levels.
Agreed, BUT:

Cruisers and sci ships are not given anything back in the damage department. Escorts still rule while still given the extra survivalbility making them even harder to kill. That was really uncalled for, as escorts now can rely on speed tanking as well somewhat better shield tanking with several ways to escape if so need be.
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