Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 259
# 71
02-09-2013, 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Agreed, BUT:

Cruisers and sci ships are not given anything back in the damage department. Escorts still rule while still given the extra survivalbility making them even harder to kill. That was really uncalled for, as escorts now can rely on speed tanking as well somewhat better shield tanking with several ways to escape if so need be.
True. The oddest part is how escorts control the battlefield. Hit and run or hit and stay. Hit and chase down escaping ships. Conversely, the majority of science ships and cruisers can't maneuver or effectively escape (comparatively) or do significant pressure damage or spike. All that plus tanking abilities that rival cruisers... It's skewed.

From cruisers online to Escorts online.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,094
# 72
02-09-2013, 10:45 AM
Much of what's being discussed simply comes about because of the single player angle of PvE...as far as why certain ships may appear to have better survivability than they should, they lack the need for other certain ships to keep them alive, etc, etc, etc...

...to get around that, they would have to significantly increase the damage of those ships to cover for the lack of survivability. Turning them into potential glass cannons - where the cannon part would far outweigh the glass aspect. By making that boost to the survivability in regard to the other ships though, likewise - they'd see their damage reduced even more.

Funny how that works out, if you stop to think about it for a moment... and yes, that's PvE - this is a PvP discussion - but this is a PvE game, you can't ignore PvE just because it's a PvP thread in the PvP section of the forums.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,804
# 73
02-09-2013, 02:12 PM
The core root of the problem is still high resistance rates. They are skewing all of the math.

Lets say we take an escort right now with 8k shields. Let us say they can self restore 6k shields each minute, or 100 per second.

Buffer EHP = 8,000 or an 8,000 damage alpha will kill them.
Sustain EHP = 100 per second, or DPS over 100 will eventually kill them.

Now let us add 40% resists to that equation.

Buffer EHP = 13,333
Sustain EHP = 167

So now you are forced to ramp up the overall damage to compensate and in addition the natural sustain is much stronger. Finally against a target that lacks that resist for whatever reason that damage will be more likely to Alpha the target.

If instead we increase the base shield strength but lower the resistance we would see this assuming resist 20% and say 11k shield.

Buffer EHP = 13,750
Sustain EHP = 125

And that gives us a stronger ability to apply pressure damage without increasing the frequency of alpha strikes. Also it encourages having a friend around to help restore lost shields.

Right now that defiant build I stated can fully restore its shields in about 50 seconds. That means to apply pressure damage an enemy must deal 2% of my shields in damage every second. Sounds reasonable but hang on one mere moment. My engineer steamrunner can restore his shields every 25 seconds on average meaning the pressure damage an enemy must deal is 4% of my shields per second. Let us assume DPS is boosted to allow that to happen and someone can deal 6% constantly. Now the defiant explodes in 20 seconds or less if the enemy front loads his damage.

There is an ideal ratio between Max HP vs Time to Heal. When that ratio gets wonky you end up overpowering either Alpha Strikes or Pressure Damage. That ratio is extremely skewed at the moment and the blame lies solely on the higher amounts of damage being mitigated via resists combined with the new sources of free healing.

Ask yourself these two simple questions.

1) Was it possible pre-F2P for an escort to fully restore all shield and hull damage every minute in battle?

2) Was it easy pre-F2P to get 40%-60% shield resist F2P with a single ensign ability and gear?

Last edited by bareel; 02-09-2013 at 02:14 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 677
# 74
02-09-2013, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post

1) Was it possible pre-F2P for an escort to fully restore all shield and hull damage every minute in battle?

2) Was it easy pre-F2P to get 40%-60% shield resist F2P with a single ensign ability and gear?


1.
Totally depends on what shield you used, and what shield heals you carried, in combat mode, out of combat, shield power level, etc.
Same story for Hull, but you would need to have HE2/HE3 and a Engiteam/aux2sif to do that prolly.

2. Epts1 was always like 18% Shield resist, Power level adds another 10/15%? Not sure if the Maco shield was already there tho (10% + 5% Absorb = 15% excluding the 5x +2 powerlevel stacks (Another few percent = 15-20% resist total for maco)


I just got back into the game after 3 months of absence and i definately notice shields are a lot more resilient now.

I think a good solution to the whole PvP community would be to simply remove or at least alter the whole Distribute_Shields function to that its either removed or altered in a way that its no longer spammable and has a negative transferring speed towards each facing compared to only distributing your shields manually to up, down, left or right facings.

Not only would this solve alot of problems it will also bring back a new dynamic to the game since I sincerely believe that the function was never supposed to be spammed continuously. It would add a whole new dimension of dynamic to the PvP and a new grade of complexity/player skill level to the game's PvP system.

So in a nutshell

- Manually distributing to a single shield side should transfer faster than the Distribute shields to all facings simultaneously would (I believe this is already the case more or less logically)

- Or remove the whole Distribute_Shields function (To all facings simultaneously) or make it so its only usable in a specific interval (But the RP'ers might cry but really like 99% of the PVE'ers dont even use this mechanic at all)



Not only this, but it will also reduce the gap between newbies not knowing how to bind distribute_shields to their spacebar and advanced players that do use it. This will place both player grades much closer together all of the sudden.


Another problem which is still around is that Tactical team is still spammed way too much and it should be dealt with imo. Bring some new useful abilities to the tacticals instead, most noticably the ensign stations.


I think this will resolve loads of problems and add a new fun factor to the game.

MT

Last edited by darkfader1988; 02-09-2013 at 06:20 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 75
02-09-2013, 06:49 PM
Out of respect for Borticus I moved this here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
As for the issue raised/responded-to by Mancom... Honestly, I probably should not have replied to that one just yet, as my reply didn't offer much in the way of constructive feedback, or a step toward resolution. It's a many-faceted issue that can't accurately be boiled down to a single variable. I can see how Resists/Regen can appear to be the issue, but there's just as much of an argument to be made that they NEED to exist in their current state BECAUSE spike damage builds and SNB coordination strikes exist.
The massive issue that you're missing here is that you're balancing the full time spent on a game map around the most powerful aggressive combo tactic there is. This doesn't weaken the hand of SNB/spike, it makes it stronger; essentially, if nukes/coordinated burst can't kill a target, nothing else in the game can. This is made particularly more curious considering that two very common, humble skills are a total hard counter to a timed nuke (ST and TT).

The more you ramp up the passive healing/resists/DOffs situation, the more people will rely on timed nukes/burst to actually bring games to a close. Without these outside sources, burst would still be strong (as it is in any game, since essentially it's taking advantage of someone's reaction time) but there'd be many, many other options to either counter the opposing team's strategy or even to form an offensive one of one's own.

Frankly, by the way these captain skills work (and given that they've been around for three years without much complaint) it's quite clear that Attack Pattern: Alpha and Subnucleonic Beam are "working as intended". They're the highest tier skills of an entire career choice respectively, of course they're going to be strong. But counters that rely on team play and good timing also exist, and they're really not exceptionally difficult to master.

The whole passives/DOffs/shields situation is just trying to fill a non-existent demand. AP:A/SNB's credibility is not in dispute, but these untested, rushed-out passives/DOffs absolutely are. Just look at how the original version of the T4 shield heal turned out in practice.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 76
02-09-2013, 08:27 PM
Also!

One thought, if alphas/nukes are a genuine concern of yours for whatever reason: rather than turning everyone into their own personal nigh-invulnerable tanky-deeps ship, how about taking the opportunity to make Engies a more valuable team asset? With castable captain powers, now a team with one or two Engies is much more defensively prepared for high burst damage (RSF and a shield battery can shrug off the worst the game has to throw at you). So now you'd have a choice of running moar Sci, aggressive yet vulnerable, or moar Eng, better for a war of attrition.

I think it'd be a lot more healthy for the game's balance as a whole and for making everyone feel like a desirable, worthwhile part of a team, instead of simply shifting the burden onto silly fleet gear and gimmick items.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,269
# 77
02-09-2013, 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Actually in a PvE sense it is one of the things that skews escort balance.

IF the primary factor in a ship's resistance capabilities lies in its equipment and utilizing low tier boff skills that allows the difference between the EHP, or buffer tank capability, between the escort and other ships to become so small it is insignificant. Do the same with sustainability and once again the issue arises.

Yes it is true a cruiser can pack more resistance and sustain than an escort, but how much more? And at what opportunity cost? When an escort uses an ensign ability like EPtS 1 to hit 45% shield resist their is very little opportunity cost. Yet when the cruiser uses EPtS 3, which mind you one of the very few ways for it to gain more resistance and establish a significant difference in EHP or buffer, he does pay a large opportunity cost.

*edit addon*
I mean let us look at what the major changes in current game are from pre-F2P

*Maco/Fleet shields granting strong passive resistance
*Shield power resistance granting increased
*Increased ship power levels
*Additional passive healing added primarily via Doffs
*Favored shield type becoming Resilient

Has damage gone up by a large amount? Not really other than escorts have more time on target. The major change is how easy it has become to get high damage mitigation numbers with little effort.
In the old days that opportunity came in the form of a disable power that the Cruiser player could use to set that escort up for the kill.
Now, not so much unless one is a really good Cruiser player.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,741
# 78
02-09-2013, 09:03 PM
Pressure damage is quite dead. Beam arrays deal pathetic amounts of damage. They simply drain too much power, the fire cycle is way too long, and they lack significant force. You might as well be shooting blanks. Changing beam arrays to fire once per volley while draining 5 weapon power should help in this area.

PUG 5v5 PvP matches have come to a point where the team with the most Jem'hadar attack ships and Temporal ships (constant temporal backsteps/temporal inversion field) will win every time. I used to be able to kill players flying the bug ships. Then season six rolled around and Cryptic decided the already overpowered ship needed an extra tactical console slot and 10% more hull and shields. They took an overpowered ship and they made it even more overpowered.

Once fleets started to get the elite shields right before Season Seven, Jem'hadar attack ships with this shield were unkillable 1v1 (and in many cases up to (3v1) in PUGs if the pilot was worth his salt. The ship already has turn rate to rival bird of prey, hull higher than every escort with the exception of the fleet escort carrier, cruiser level shield mods, and on top of that they have the highest impulse modifier in the game. Not only are they insanely tanky, they can run away from other players and there isn't a single ship in the game capable of catching up to them.

The season seven procs are all heal over time to counter pressure damage, which isn't really a problem at this point. The problem in this game are 5 Tactical console ships with 4x Dual Heavy Cannons and 3x Turrets under Cannon Rapid Fire III with Attack Pattern Omega I, Attack Pattern Alpha III, and Tactical Fleet II. Nerf the all dual heavy cannon super spike build and super shield resists are no longer needed. Adding a major power drain mechanic to running that many dual heavy cannon weapons would help. Dropping the Jem'hadar attack ship's base hull to 28,000 and shields to 0.88 would compensate for it's bird of prey level turn rate and speed. As for the elite shields, right now escorts can get a free 35% shield resistance from incoming weapons damage simply by running the elite shields. Dropping [ResA] and [ResB] down from 15% to 10% and the max number of stacks of [Adapt] from 10 down to 5 while at the same time dropping the uptime from 30 seconds/proc to 15 seconds/proc should remove the problem. The change to the elite shields would have minimal effect on cruisers, as they already have many abilities capable of raising the shield resistances to the cap. The last problem is the sensor targeting assault proc from the reputation system. If the escort is running jam sensors , the sensor targeting assault passive, and the Adpated MACO/KHG shields it's impossible to keep a target lock on the ship. All this does is it hurts science vessels (and it's very annoying having to constantly retarget a ship). Science vessels can't use sensor analysis if the escort is breaking it every 2-3 seconds. Adding a 30 second immunity to sensor targeting assault and the KHG/Adapted MACO should fix the constant proccing with escorts. Sensor jamming is a science ability and super stacking shield resistances is a engineering ability. Escorts shouldn't be able to do both of those in addition to dealing the most damage.

Last edited by majortiraomega; 02-09-2013 at 09:21 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 79
02-09-2013, 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Agreed, BUT:

Cruisers and sci ships are not given anything back in the damage department. Escorts still rule...
Escorts haven't been given anything extra in the damage department that Cruisers and Sci ships do not also have access to (generally, more crit %).

This means life is harder for escorts as well.

I know everyone like to think or pretend that just pointing 4 DHCs at something will evaporate - but I promise you that without Sci for control & SNBs, escorts are not getting clean kills on opposing teams that know what they are doing.

With the new passive resistances and heals, and a little bit of cross-healing, a full even well timed alpha strike can just bounce off targets without proper kill assist by sci.


So I think we're in agreement that the passive healing and resistance has gone kind of nuts, but its gone nuts for everyone and should not be some "nerf escorts" issue.




Quote:
Originally Posted by ocp001 View Post
True. The oddest part is how escorts control the battlefield. Hit and run or hit and stay.
Sci controls the battlefield when two strong teams face each other.

Escorts only control the battlefield in pug matches with little to no coordination.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 80
02-09-2013, 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
The massive issue that you're missing here is that you're balancing the full time spent on a game map around the most powerful aggressive combo tactic there is. This doesn't weaken the hand of SNB/spike, it makes it stronger; essentially, if nukes/coordinated burst can't kill a target, nothing else in the game can. This is made particularly more curious considering that two very common, humble skills are a total hard counter to a timed nuke (ST and TT).

The more you ramp up the passive healing/resists/DOffs situation, the more people will rely on timed nukes/burst to actually bring games to a close.


I had to quote this because it's extremely important.


I agree that one of the important points Bort should take away from this conversation is that fleet gear / leadership / rep procs > these things are not equalizers giving weaker players a fighting chance against stronger players.

All this does is push the gap wider.

Anything the weak pug team is capable of bringing to bear with this new system, the strong coordinated team brings even more of - except they also have complete dominance when it comes to offense.

Now, the weak uncoordinated team actually has to not only surmount the strong team's skill level - they also have to overcome all of these passive heals and resistances.
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