Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 871
# 81
02-10-2013, 05:28 AM
The biggest factor here is the fleet shields. OMGWTFBBQ awesome against pressure, but bad against spike damage.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 561
# 82
02-10-2013, 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
The biggest factor here is the fleet shields. OMGWTFBBQ awesome against pressure, but bad against spike damage.
Elite Fleet Shields are a major contributor. But even only regular MACO shields and T4 shield passives work really well to nullify pressure damage.


And just to stress that point again for the general public: Shields, Reputation passives and Human Boffs can be used on ALL ships regardless of class with basically no opportunity cost.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 83
02-10-2013, 05:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
And just to stress that point again for the general public: Shields, Reputation passives and Human Boffs can be used on ALL ships regardless of class with basically no opportunity cost.
From which obviously the so called "glass" canon profits the most.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 84
02-10-2013, 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortiraomega View Post
Pressure damage is quite dead. Beam arrays deal pathetic amounts of damage. They simply drain too much power, the fire cycle is way too long, and they lack significant force. You might as well be shooting blanks. Changing beam arrays to fire once per volley while draining 5 weapon power should help in this area.

PUG 5v5 PvP matches have come to a point where the team with the most Jem'hadar attack ships and Temporal ships (constant temporal backsteps/temporal inversion field) will win every time. I used to be able to kill players flying the bug ships. Then season six rolled around and Cryptic decided the already overpowered ship needed an extra tactical console slot and 10% more hull and shields. They took an overpowered ship and they made it even more overpowered.

Once fleets started to get the elite shields right before Season Seven, Jem'hadar attack ships with this shield were unkillable 1v1 (and in many cases up to (3v1) in PUGs if the pilot was worth his salt. The ship already has turn rate to rival bird of prey, hull higher than every escort with the exception of the fleet escort carrier, cruiser level shield mods, and on top of that they have the highest impulse modifier in the game. Not only are they insanely tanky, they can run away from other players and there isn't a single ship in the game capable of catching up to them.

The season seven procs are all heal over time to counter pressure damage, which isn't really a problem at this point. The problem in this game are 5 Tactical console ships with 4x Dual Heavy Cannons and 3x Turrets under Cannon Rapid Fire III with Attack Pattern Omega I, Attack Pattern Alpha III, and Tactical Fleet II. Nerf the all dual heavy cannon super spike build and super shield resists are no longer needed. Adding a major power drain mechanic to running that many dual heavy cannon weapons would help. Dropping the Jem'hadar attack ship's base hull to 28,000 and shields to 0.88 would compensate for it's bird of prey level turn rate and speed. As for the elite shields, right now escorts can get a free 35% shield resistance from incoming weapons damage simply by running the elite shields. Dropping [ResA] and [ResB] down from 15% to 10% and the max number of stacks of [Adapt] from 10 down to 5 while at the same time dropping the uptime from 30 seconds/proc to 15 seconds/proc should remove the problem. The change to the elite shields would have minimal effect on cruisers, as they already have many abilities capable of raising the shield resistances to the cap. The last problem is the sensor targeting assault proc from the reputation system. If the escort is running jam sensors , the sensor targeting assault passive, and the Adpated MACO/KHG shields it's impossible to keep a target lock on the ship. All this does is it hurts science vessels (and it's very annoying having to constantly retarget a ship). Science vessels can't use sensor analysis if the escort is breaking it every 2-3 seconds. Adding a 30 second immunity to sensor targeting assault and the KHG/Adapted MACO should fix the constant proccing with escorts. Sensor jamming is a science ability and super stacking shield resistances is a engineering ability. Escorts shouldn't be able to do both of those in addition to dealing the most damage.


I agree with a lot of what you just stated and i fly a bug, i have defended it on the forums as well, what im agreeing with though is what you stated about the elite shields and all these new placate procs from rom tier and adapted maco,,,the guy i complained about in my fleet is a sci captain in a vesta with those spamming/annoying runabouts, cool sci abilities plus he can equip cannons (and the aux phaser cannons which are stronger than fleet weps cause he runs 125 aux) then he has the rom tier offensive placate as well as adapted maco shield placate, if im not spammed to death by chroniton and tractors from his pets and VM from him and can actually shoot at him i can never keep a lock he just disappears, the only time i can take him out is when playing 3 on 3 or higher, 2on 2 or 1on1 he always focuses on me first and spams me to death while i cant keep a lock on hiim,,i have no problem with cool sci abilities but all these placates stacked are bogus as far as im concerned and if STO isnt going to do anything about it, then i will go and get all that stuff as well to compensate against those already using it.

And those elite shields need nerfed badly and i dont usually use that word on here, but when im in a bug and my fleetmate in a fleet patrol both pushing high DPS tag teaming a guy in another bug who just got hit with tachyon mines and tractor beam and we couldnt even get him lower than 60% hull at any time for 45 seconds only to have him turn around and smoke us both is just well,,,,guarantee he had those elite shields.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,069
# 85
02-10-2013, 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
UThe JHAS is too the only ship which can take out my Wells with 17k shields and 39k hull in one volley if the player is properly buffed. Dont get me started with how poorly crusiers and sci ships perform in the damage department. This fact is further impacted by the third factor -->
So Defiant cant do that or you meant as the normal "bug is op because its purple" ?
Defiants with 3 crtH boffs from emabssy will always out dps the jhas .

Last edited by adrianm63; 02-10-2013 at 08:49 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,916
# 86
02-10-2013, 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus614 View Post
And those elite shields need nerfed badly [...]
Why not just buff pressure damage... for example, by making elite fleet weapons actually offensively useful? Or with a doff? Something like that. Power creep isn't going to go away, so let them steer it more into a new direction.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,055
# 87
02-10-2013, 09:48 PM
I'm sorry I missed this thread... thats what I get for barely checking in anymore.

Yes preasure damage is completely pointless at this point.

Honestly its been a long time coming... anyone that knows me. Knows I have been running my sci boats full kinetic for a long time... because of this problem... there is zero point in Preasure. Your better off letting loose with torp barrages on both sci and cruiser vessels... let the escorts pump and when they manage to catch a sheild have as much kinetic in the air and spamed on the field as possible. Really the beams coming off the cruisers is doing nothing anyway might as well spam torps... and hope to add a nice but of burst when an escort manages to get a shield down for a few sec.

Here are a few of the things I would point to.

1) heals are far to active... cool downs have always been quick in STO... but thanks to many doffs cool downs on many skills is a thing of the past.

2) passive regen with rep bonuses will keep up with 2-3 ships of beams.... frankly even DHC escorts can't out pace full rep bonus regen anymore... thanks to on crit heals and + shield heal consoles... I feel even the 4 DHC escort is almost pointless... unless you have a team willing to pop 2 sub nukes per kill.

3) shield resists... the E Fleet shield is still a terrible idea... button mashing friendly no thinking items are always bad design imo.

4) Doffs... there are far to many doffs that upset healing balance. We all know 2 AP doffs will keep your omega 3 up 50% of the time... with delta protection up the other 50%... hazard doffs are underrated... 1-2 of them and its like strapping on a couple extra armour
units. DMG control will keep 2 systems perma buffed... Tech doffs will drop skills like RSP to global. The first version of the shield distro doff was terrible... but it was far from the only badly designed doff.

5) Bad skill tree designs.... there are a few we could talk about here
- Electro Plasma Flow... we don't talk about this one often but really who ever runs an EPS unit anymore... One advantage to the old system where people had to run 1-2 EPS units to properly switch power settings... and even feed there weapons drain... keep people from slotting 2-3 neutronium armour units.
- Sci Resists... I have been on record saying I don't think the resists are a major issue where they are... however considering ALL the new shield +s lately... it might not be a bad idea to look at perhaps killing 20-30% of the resist values from Insulators.
- Warp Core Potential / Effic.... I am not saying we shouldn't be able to spec our power systems... however There are Far to many people running at 125 shield power... while maintaining high high power levels everywhere else. This further pushes resists and regen values... not to mention help make many people feel the Staple Engi Captain skill is completely useless. (this goes to Electro Plasma as well... the combo usurps EPS transfer)
- Star Ship manuvers. There has been lots of talk recently about defense rating on escorts... and I would mainly point at the badly designed doffs that allow 50% up time on the commander omega 3... however Every ships defense is up thanks to the manuvers skill.

I really haven't been pvping much in STO lately... because frankly it does nothing but annoy me. I like to think I still know enough about this game to make some intelligent observations. Honestly I can think of plenty of small fixes... I am not sure if they would correct the overall picture or not. I do empathise with the Cryptic guys and Bort. I really don't see any quick 1-2 change fixes. (I understand PvP can't be there only concern)... I understand asking to revert things like weapon power draws and stuff would not go down well with the pve crowd... honestly though most of the newer power / power drain / cool down mechanics are responsible for both the death of Preasure dmg... and at the same time the death of the Engi Captain. The Engi Skills are simply Not needed anymore... they have no place... preasure dmg is pointless, and survivability is so high for everyone that there self buffs are simply a waste in a team. There is nothing the engi does that is unique to them or really seen as a good enough reason to run one anymore....
I think at least on that level the PvE guys might appreciate some changes... then again Engi does just fine in PvE. Its a quagmire no doubt.

(PS... just to be clear when I say the doff cool down reductions on presure dmg... we simply need to think about how it worked before... when buffs where up preasure dmg was always a none issue, mostly anyway... however there was always that window where in a fight we could see the preasure spike happen, as peoples buffs where either down for 15s... or they had to switch to there lower powered secondary copies. Good teams would at that point have there engis pop there nadions and throw the escorts there eps transfers... and even with out a ton of Nukes games where won... that end of the game has been completely removed and dumbed down now thanks to doff cool down reductions)
/channel_join Tyler Durden

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 02-10-2013 at 09:56 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 88
02-11-2013, 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Why not just buff pressure damage... for example, by making elite fleet weapons actually offensively useful? Or with a doff? Something like that. Power creep isn't going to go away, so let them steer it more into a new direction.
It's funny you should say that because the Elite Fleet weaps have, of all things, a built-in heal proc, lol.

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 661
# 89
02-11-2013, 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
It's funny you should say that because the Elite Fleet weaps have, of all things, a built-in heal proc, lol.
WHAT? Thats the best weapons you can get from the starbase aye? Horrible horrible
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 637
# 90
02-11-2013, 02:44 AM
Idea: What if beams included a reliable (ie: 50%) proc to re~tard shield regeneration by a small value, that expires in like, 15 seconds and can stack up to an arbitrary amount, like say 20 times.


This would buff beams immensely without increasing the damage value, but also reward running multiple beams- as you could significantly re~tard an enemy's shield regen rate running a full beam boat.

EDIT: Oh for the love of, that's censored? wtf.

Last edited by illcadia; 02-11-2013 at 02:48 AM.
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