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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 339
# 11
02-09-2013, 11:55 AM
There's really no need for an Engineer in PvP.

If one does show up, they're expected to heal, not that Tacs and Sci can't heal just as well but the latter two prefer to do DPS.

Engineer DPS blows due to lack of inherent Buffs/Debuffs

Tanking is irrelevant in PvP and with the rampant passive healing in the game's current state, a Tac in an escort can tank almost as well.

If you're an Engineer and like to PvP, I say do whatever you want as long as you're having fun. Just know that you're entering with a handicap.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,675
# 12
02-09-2013, 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnumoftheblack View Post
The fact that people think that Engineers are healers is a concept that should be rethought.
Healing...period...needs to be rethought. This isn't Star Trek Online. It's WoW in Space - where certain ships can slot more or better Clerics, Druids, and Paladins...

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
If you're an Engineer and like to PvP, I say do whatever you want as long as you're having fun.
CnH PUG queues with my Fed and Ker'rat with my KDF.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-09-2013 at 12:07 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 439
# 13
02-09-2013, 01:31 PM
Eng: Miracle Worker, Rotate Shield Frequency, Nadion Inversion, EPS Power, Engineering Fleet

Sci: Subnucleonic Beam, Photonic Fleet, Scattering Field, Sensor Scan, Science Fleet

Those are the five abilities that separate a Sci Captain and an Eng Captain. The Sci doesn't have any additional healing there.

There's SNB which could reduce the amount of healing needed by stripping buffs off a target. There's Scattering which can reduce the amount of healing needed by reducing energy weapon damage to the hull of those around you. There's Sci Fleet which can reduce the amount of healing needed by reducing damage to shields while also reducing potential drain to shields and power levels. It also boosts shield healing. DOFF'd Scan could also reduce the amount of healing needed by reducing the amount of damage being done. Even Photonic could technically reduce damage by acting as chaff and eating some non-targeted incoming damage.

But there's not actually any heals.
And you're going to have other Sci's for Evil Bill Nye goodies.

The Eng, well, from a team perspective - probably start off with Eng Fleet. Which can actually increase passive healing because of the boost to hull repair (as well as active healing), provides the smallish boost to all power levels which can provide that smallish increase to shield damage reduction and regen, and it also provides additional hull damage resist. Then there's using EPS Power to boost power on yourself or a single ally - which can do more of what the WCP buff from Eng Fleet did. And then... well, nope - that's it. MW, RSF, and NI are just things that may keep you alive longer so you can do your job longer.

There's more "team healing" out of an Engineer than a Sci. The Sci is just more team friendly overall. But again, you're likely to have another Sci or two - you're not likely to have the Eng there as anything other than a Healer - which gets into that overall discussion of Engineers and their five innates vs. the five for Tac or Sci.

As web said though, depending on the team setup - it may or may not be covered anyway. Lots of folks have posted about the 3 Tac/2 Sci or 2 Tac/3 Sci teams - with crosshealing, etc, etc, etc. One could say that an Eng healer is like lockbox, eh? Sometimes you may bring them, and simply not need them - wishing you had brought something else. Sometimes you may not bring them, and find you need them - wishing you had brought them instead of something else. The various discussions over the years should give an idea of what the percentage rates for either of those scenarios is...

As zara said, it's about the ship. Cmdr Eng and LCdr Sci - so that you can get the best heals from both. So you're going to hear about the Recluse and the Science Odyssey. From time to time, you'll see folks arguing those two in OPvP. Heck, there's even folks that have brought up the Ambassador and what a Fleet version might be able to do since it's got the Cmdr Eng and LCdr Sci. The Fleet Nebula...has Cmdr Sci and LCdr Eng - so you've got a non-heal Cmdr Sci ability while missing out on the Cmdr Eng abilities. Course, if the team can work around that - then it opens to the door to several more ships with that kind of layout that could work as more offensive healers - giving up that Cmdr Eng heal for some Cmdr Sci EVIL...muahahahaha.

But don't mind me in the least...I don't participate in high level PvP and neither of my Engineers are healers.
.................................................. .................................................. .........................


so sci dmg resistance doesn't count as useful for defence ?

Last edited by rakija879; 02-09-2013 at 01:43 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,663
# 14
02-09-2013, 01:46 PM
Engi Cruiser isn't as bad as most people let on...

I think it suffers from what many "easy" mode classes suffer from. Bad players.

Ok I know that can seem offensive... and I am sorry for that. Here is the thing though...

Engi isn't as easy mode as most people seem to think.

Frankly any fool can load an escort and do enough DPS to take care of the pve junk in this game... and 9 times out of 10 even bad escort setups will do OK in pvp. Perhaps not the best player in the map... but even bad escorts tend to put out some hurt.

Engi cruiser on the other hand... is a widely played class and it the level of skill needed to do it proper is deceptive. A bad engi cruiser... it terrible at healing and dmg... and is only saved in pve by simply having more hull and shields and inate heals to get by...

Here is what I have found flying my engi cruiser a bit again lately...

1) Engi Cruiser DPS can be fine... I have flown some pve with my engi cruiser the last few days... and looking at the logs My proper engi cruiser was out dpsing the pve player escorts. Granted its no where near my tac scorts dps number... still its with in 30%... and my tac scort dps I know is top tier... so I would have to conclude its not as bad as people make out.

2) Healing is still extremely good... yes sci sci is a fantastic heal setup... but engi cruiser imo is still king... again if its done properly.

I will say engi cruiser is the hardest to setup to be versatile. It is hard to come up with a build that both provides top engi DPS with top heals. I know many people just load max heals and mostly forget about DPS... and I will say this... on my engi cruiser I could go aux to bat DEM 3 EPTW... and out dps most average escort pilots. OR I can go max heals and out Heal pretty much any sci healer. The one nice thing about engi cruiser as a full on healer is you ARE capable of spiking dmg for short periods. I think it is possible to hybrid a little bit... the thing is its not as easy as some of us like to think when we say engi cruiser is easy mode... It is if you only plan to survive... if you plan to keep people alive and still provide proper fire support, its in fact one of the hardest roles to fill. Its not shocking to me that most people simply can't handle it.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 339
# 15
02-09-2013, 01:57 PM
Having high DPS numbers are meaningless if you're not killing anything, other than spam.

The only thing that makes Engineers slightly better healers is because they get an extra battery every minute and a half.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,142
# 16
02-09-2013, 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Yep, left those out. The Mirror Vo'Quv is pretty interesting for that with the LCdr Tac, LCdr Eng, Lt Eng, and Cmdr Sci instead of the LCdr Tac, LCdr Eng, Cmdr Sci, Lt Sci of the regular Vo'Quv.

Shame that the Bortasqu' doesn't have the console layouts to support what you could do with the BOFF layouts.
I have been able to do pretty good with a Command Bortasqu using Lt Cmdr universal as sci for healing. TSS3 is still strong when powered by high aux even though it only has 2 sci consoles. Also it can offer much more support dps then the sci oddy can at the same time.

There is also the much overlooked Fleet corsair which does get Cmdr Eng and Lt Cmdr Sci, 4 sci consoles, and hangar.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 17
02-09-2013, 02:20 PM
Yip have to agree with all that's been said here. Been a while since I have even run my engineer in pvp.

In my mind Engineers fix things, make them hum - if Sci has the debuff wizardry, engineers should have the team support skills, something like enhanced team weapons focus, or an emergency power relay (powerful surge of power) that knocks out systems, sonic detonations and other field deployments. Engineers should be more feared than they current are.

Last edited by drkfrontiers; 02-09-2013 at 02:30 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,675
# 18
02-09-2013, 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
There is also the much overlooked Fleet corsair which does get Cmdr Eng and Lt Cmdr Sci, 4 sci consoles, and hangar.
I've seen a few folks flying those in Ker'rat and they've done pretty well.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 757
# 19
02-09-2013, 03:03 PM
Even though the Eng is supposed to be the 'tank', I feel like I can tank/heal/absorb damage/whatever way more in my Sci than my Eng.
The first we heard of getting new PvP maps "soon" was in August of 2010. We're consistently told something will be coming with the "next" update. Absolutely nothing has come to PvP since launch.

I think it's finally time Cryptic stopped stringing us along, don't you?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,675
# 20
02-09-2013, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Yip have to agree with all that's been said here. Been a while since I have even run my engineer in pvp.

In my mind Engineers fix things, make them hum - if Sci has the debuff wizardry, engineers should have the team support skills, something like enhanced team weapons focus, or an emergency power relay (powerful surge of power) that knocks out systems, sonic detonations and other field deployments. Engineers should be more feared than they current are.
It's the way Cryptic handled things for STO... it's kind of off in comparison to "Star Trek" in the way the careers/divisions are handled - at least from the Starfleet perspective.

There's Command - which is somewhat the easiest, because Command could have started out as Command, Operations, or Science. Our Captains are Command, regardless of the "STO" Career selected. STO itself though, is missing the Command Career. We're just something else that ended up Command.

Operations on the other hand:

"Members of the operations division may have specialized in a ship or base service, administration, or military operations, or served as staff officers. Operations officers included engineers, security and tactical, and some service specializations such as communications. Operations division personnel also filled administrative posts as yeomen, personnel officers, and portmasters. By the 24th century, this division had new postings established on ships, such as operations officers (or chief of operations)."

And then Science:

"The sciences division was the corps of officers within Starfleet who specialized in both scientific and medical research and control functions on starbases, aboard starships, and at Starfleet Command. Members of the sciences division may have specialized in sensors, research, theoretical and physical laboratory work, biological studies, and also as technicians, medics, and surgeons."

No doubt there were dualspecs - whether it was Com/Ops, Com/Sci, Ops/Sci, or even dualspecs within Com, Ops, or Sci. It became more prevalent in the TNG and later eras.

But ask yourself, how many SciOps were there compared to OpsSci? Where did all the Science in STO come from? It didn't come from Star Trek. Well, in a sense it did.

Look at Sci Vessels - they're basically specialized Cruisers or Escorts. For some reason, they've got Subsystem Targeting which is obviously an Ops ability - perhaps something that should have been left to TacOps BOFFs, eh?

Look at Sci BOFF abilities? Are even half of them, even a third of them, actually Sci abilities or are they Ops abilities you'd expect Engineers and Tactical to have?

Operations was gutted to create the Science Career in STO.

That's not going to change now, but it can be fun (and painful) to think about what might have been... if we had more fleshed out character creation, more fleshed out BOFFs, ships that better represented the nature of the shows/movies, etc, etc, etc. If we had Star Trek Online... rather than a game that's more akin to an arcade/console game.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Command_division
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Operations_division
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sciences_division

edit: It's like I used to joke about it, when I've got a somewhat obvious preference for Engineers - why I played Sci toons as well (I used to run more Sci than Eng). I'd say what Sci? Oh, these guys? They're Engineers in Blue uniforms...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-09-2013 at 03:46 PM.
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