Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,462
# 11
02-10-2013, 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Not that I disagree on ApOs defensive being set to a max of 5 seconds, is not the duration of ApO effects affected by skill levels?
It's a case the tooltip states 5s for certain aspects and 15s for others...everything lasts the full 15s though. Either the tooltip should just say 15s for everything or things where it says 5s, it should be 5s. That sort of thing...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 12
02-10-2013, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's a case the tooltip states 5s for certain aspects and 15s for others...everything lasts the full 15s though. Either the tooltip should just say 15s for everything or things where it says 5s, it should be 5s. That sort of thing...
Or skilling in Attack Patterns increases the durations of ApOs effects? much like skilling in Batteries increases the base 10 seconds of duration to a max of 20 when one uses a battery.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,462
# 13
02-10-2013, 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Or skilling in Attack Patterns increases the durations of ApOs effects? much like skilling in Batteries increases the base 10 seconds of duration to a max of 20 when one uses a battery.
Even on a toon with 0 SAP... the 5s on the tooltip is actually 15s of buff. It's just not working as listed.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 14
02-10-2013, 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
1) Target Engines 1 or 2.... Yes this is a great skill that not many people run...
If it were a great skill, more people would run it. In fact, it has a 20% chance to disable the engines for 8 sec. However, you also need to hit with the attack. And thats the major problem here.

Quote:
2) Tractor beam... DON'T just hit it cause your cool down is up... First check the escorts buff bar... if they have omega up WAIT for the time on it to drop off. I like to engage a tractor as I see some one passing very close to me, and as there omega has 2-3s left on it... this way they will pass me. (you can reverse if you need to) and the tactor will almost always kick in with them having NOTHING pointing at you but turrets... it will frustrate and annoy the Average escort dude.
Tractor beams are quite nice, however, also quite easy to counter. AtP-Omega can be mounted 2 times on any average escort. More over, if you want to be sure, take polarize hull.

Quote:
3) if your in a sci ship use some VM... nothing more annoying to an escort then a VM lock down.
I have ran VMIII + VMI in a BoP to lock down targets and found it to random to use. However, quite nice in team situation of course.

Quote:
4) Eject Warp Plasma. Get good at laying this at the right time... and you will again annoy most escorts... get good at dropping it with your OWN engine buffs up and you will score plenty of escort kills.... in other words drop it with your EVASIVE up, or aux to damp... or an omega if you have one on a tactical type sci/cruiser.
Eject Warp plasma is like /yawn. Some days ago I was critically hit by a warp plasma in Kerrat. I was unimpressed, but - neverthless - used HE1 to clear it.

Quote:
5) Chron mines... great option for sci ships and cruisers... again if you just dropping them on auto fire there not likely going to do to much... but if you use them right they can be a nasty debuff... I won't say this is the strongest option as omega counters it now... still can work but they are hard to time against buffs.
Chronton mines are another /yawn. Even debuffed, the turn rate of an escort is high enough to outmanouver most cruisers, escpacially the Federtion ones (can fed cruiser acutually turn? I don't know ...)

Quote:
Anyway theres a few ideas for you and there are plenty of other ways to counter speedy escorts... I think the best way to sum up all the good options though is to say that you can't just dumb fire any of them... use your counters properly and time them and lone escorts shouldn't be a the uber wonder weapons you seem to make them out to be.
The problem is that crowd control is available on very low ranks in game - namely tractor beam 1. However, crowd control is a very hard to balance thing. Never give any player crowd control and damage in one, that's the holy grail. In STO, anyone, also damage dealers, can have crowd control. However, it can be countered very easy or don't work very reliable.

Unfortunately, also crowd control of higher ranks can be countered quite easy. It should be in general more effective when used by a sci captain and espacially if used at higher rank.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,631
# 15
02-10-2013, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
If it were a great skill, more people would run it. In fact, it has a 20% chance to disable the engines for 8 sec. However, you also need to hit with the attack. And thats the major problem here.
If you miss with a Target Sub System loaded it doesn't use it and it will apply on the next shot... its pretty much impossible to miss with a target sub. Target subs are great skills and most people don't run it because it doesn't fit there play style of mashing the button when the cool down timer runs out. If people would learn to hold there skills and not try to key bind every buff they had to the space bar they would find things work just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
Tractor beams are quite nice, however, also quite easy to counter. AtP-Omega can be mounted 2 times on any average escort. More over, if you want to be sure, take polarize hull.
Yes an escort can have 100% tractor resist... at the cost of either there main sci hull heal or shield heal. Frankly if someone is dumb enough to get into a battle with a player that is highly unlikely to go down on the first run... going in with no TSS or HZ will be good times for them. Unless I guess they have a sci heavy escort... of course myself I find the AE / MVAM / Destroyer / scourge... to be far less of an offensive threat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
I have ran VMIII + VMI in a BoP to lock down targets and found it to random to use. However, quite nice in team situation of course.
I would think for the most part the bop is far to fragile to be pussyfooting around with VMs... VM is more the domain of true sci ships. Yes VM 3 + 1... or VM 3 with aux to bat... will lock down an escort with out heal support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
Eject Warp plasma is like /yawn. Some days ago I was critically hit by a warp plasma in Kerrat. I was unimpressed, but - neverthless - used HE1 to clear it.

Chronton mines are another /yawn. Even debuffed, the turn rate of an escort is high enough to outmanouver most cruisers, escpacially the Federtion ones (can fed cruiser acutually turn? I don't know ...)
And they are "yawn" skills in the hands of 99% of the people that use it. No doubt I know of a very small handful of pilots in this game that can use either in an effective way. Again though it comes down to properly using things.

If you are not capable of watching a buff bar to decide when an escort can't omega for the next 15s for sure... or if you are not capable of counting down someones hazards to drop plasma on them when they can't easily counter... then the escort player deserves to mash you up.

When you play any ship class in this game you HAVE to time your buffs... and hold your counters for when you need them...

I mean;
What happens to an escort that blows every Buff and then gets nuked ?
What happens to an escort that panics and pops there hazards there TSS there EPTS and tac team all at once ?

To many people think they should be able to play this game and just rotate there skills... in general its true you can basicly macro your heals and be close to unbeatable. Then again the people that do that are pretty predictable... and as a fight drags on you can pretty much count off there buffs for them... and at that point it gets much easier to beat them.

Escort defense is hard to counter if you don't pay attention... I am simply saying that is true of any of the ship classes if they are played right. I cruiser properly rotating heals is next to undead. Ditto for a properly played sci that can keep there shields up pretty much forever. The engine of the game is fine as it is... in good high skill 5v5s the balance becomes apparent. Sure some of the matches can go on way to long... still the best games turn into a chess match of buff counting. Its hard to see the balance in the average pug match... and I know thats is pretty much 99% of the pvp any of us get.

It is true escorts can load tractor beams and a small handful of other CC options... namely higher level target subs. Really any CC an escort loads is at the cost of survivability of dmg... or both.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 02-10-2013 at 10:30 AM.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 16
02-10-2013, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Even on a toon with 0 SAP... the 5s on the tooltip is actually 15s of buff. It's just not working as listed.
Then its an obviuos glitch that should obviuosly be fixed. <looks at the Dev team>.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 17
02-10-2013, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
You do understand that in order to provide the heavy dmg you are talking about an escort has to run DHC with a 45 degree arc right ? They are not flying "Circles" around you and taking no dmg... while dishing it out.

I am going to guess you don't fly escorts very often... I would suggest you fly one for a week so you better understand the tactics so you can better counter it.

Yes people will evasive while in a fight for 2 reasons... 1) yes evasive itself gives a defense boost... and 2) it allows you to more quickly get back into position to continue firing the 45 degree weapons.

I'm sorry but this one comes down to learn to play... I am going to bet you Don't run a target engines right ? ... How about a tractor beam, do you have one ? ... if you have a tractor beam do you use it properly or do you click it the second its off cool down. ... Do you have Eject Warp Plasma ? ... Do you run Viral Matrix ?

Let me give you a few tips that will have you slaughtering all but the best escort pilots... or at least forcing them to run away.

1) Target Engines 1 or 2.... Yes this is a great skill that not many people run... it has a fairly good chance to knock the system offline which will 100% stop an escort, very few escorts will have an engi team handy... or a teammate to toss them one. (if they do have a healer pay attention and time it properly) Even if you don't get an offline... taking 20-40 power off there engine system will slow them down nicely.

2) Tractor beam... DON'T just hit it cause your cool down is up... First check the escorts buff bar... if they have omega up WAIT for the time on it to drop off. I like to engage a tractor as I see some one passing very close to me, and as there omega has 2-3s left on it... this way they will pass me. (you can reverse if you need to) and the tactor will almost always kick in with them having NOTHING pointing at you but turrets... it will frustrate and annoy the Average escort dude.

3) if your in a sci ship use some VM... nothing more annoying to an escort then a VM lock down.

4) Eject Warp Plasma. Get good at laying this at the right time... and you will again annoy most escorts... get good at dropping it with your OWN engine buffs up and you will score plenty of escort kills.... in other words drop it with your EVASIVE up, or aux to damp... or an omega if you have one on a tactical type sci/cruiser.

5) Chron mines... great option for sci ships and cruisers... again if you just dropping them on auto fire there not likely going to do to much... but if you use them right they can be a nasty debuff... I won't say this is the strongest option as omega counters it now... still can work but they are hard to time against buffs.

Anyway theres a few ideas for you and there are plenty of other ways to counter speedy escorts... I think the best way to sum up all the good options though is to say that you can't just dumb fire any of them... use your counters properly and time them and lone escorts shouldn't be a the uber wonder weapons you seem to make them out to be.
Maybe you don't understand that you don't have to fly around with all DHC's in an escort. Nothing stops players from geting a mixture of DHC's and Cannons. Cannons have a 90 degree arcs and fire faster with rapid fire BOFF powers than its DHC counterparts. With Rapid Cannon Fire 2 and 3 have a longer sustaining rate of fire than ther RCF 1. The same goes for Rapid Cannon Volley Boff powers. I have flown escorts before because I have a Chirmira and I have a Klingon character with escorts and battlecruisers. Maybe you need to go back and look at how to build an escort. With cannons mixed with DHC's I can fly around in circles and deal alot of damage.

Do you realized that targeting subsystes don't do as well unless flying a science ship and you have to have your skill tree set up with high system decompiler for that to be effective? If you are in a cruiser or anthing else you risk sacrificing DPS or skills that help you tank.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 02-10-2013 at 04:44 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,335
# 18
02-10-2013, 07:16 PM
It isn't really that escorts have so much def, or even that other ships have less. It's the relationship between acc/def/crit. It's that defense is easily and even trivially stripped from any ship, and that the BEST ways of regaining that defense lay purely within the tactical domain. Acc and def are sort of okay. As long as defense is greater than zero. Once defense is removed things start to become very troublesome. Crit doesn't even seem to behave as it has been stated to.

In short, things die FAST. Far faster than hull or shield resistances can cope with. They are maxed as it is, the only thing left to do with them is turn up the hull values for hit points and shield mods. But as it is they are already so high that most non alpha level damage is now trivial to all ships.

Defense needs to come from multiple sources. Each class needs to have the ability to gain defense. Each class can already gain resistance extremely easily. Oddly, because of the way the stacking works, escorts gain the most benefit from that per point spent, but so what. So there's no solid reason to deny defense to all the classes.

And there's no need for a lot of thought on this. Allocate resources evenly and it becomes much easier to balance the load.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 19
02-10-2013, 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
It isn't really that escorts have so much def, or even that other ships have less. It's the relationship between acc/def/crit. It's that defense is easily and even trivially stripped from any ship, and that the BEST ways of regaining that defense lay purely within the tactical domain. Acc and def are sort of okay. As long as defense is greater than zero. Once defense is removed things start to become very troublesome. Crit doesn't even seem to behave as it has been stated to.

In short, things die FAST. Far faster than hull or shield resistances can cope with. They are maxed as it is, the only thing left to do with them is turn up the hull values for hit points and shield mods. But as it is they are already so high that most non alpha level damage is now trivial to all ships.

Defense needs to come from multiple sources. Each class needs to have the ability to gain defense. Each class can already gain resistance extremely easily. Oddly, because of the way the stacking works, escorts gain the most benefit from that per point spent, but so what. So there's no solid reason to deny defense to all the classes.

And there's no need for a lot of thought on this. Allocate resources evenly and it becomes much easier to balance the load.
KHG or Fed varient 3 part can add AoE 30 defense that is chanable by 4 ships. As mentioned in another thread up to 30 defense can be added by ships w/bays. I messed around w/a KDF carrier w/just 1 defensive Doff and KDF MEF and recall doff do stack. Not that everyone should, but all Fed ship classes have ships that can have this +60 defense if that's their goal.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 289
# 20
02-10-2013, 07:37 PM
The whole premise that defense ratings should be affected by movement and speed seems kinda... well, very off and not right imo.

Those mechanics really suit a WW2 flight sim better than a game with futuristic starships that possess on-board targeting computers and sensors.

In ST shows and movies, didn't most of the ship-to-ship combat seem to occur when ships were stationary and while discussing some plot line rather than playing tom cruise meets buck rogers? Movement and speed factors should be more about lessening exposed flanks than outright hit-to-miss.

Defense ought to be re-calculated to something befitting this time-line and IP imo.
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Last edited by user839020189287; 02-10-2013 at 08:46 PM.
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