Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 11
02-11-2013, 05:45 AM
I was in the EliteSTF channel the other day when a guy advertised for a team and demanded:

"CSE: Escorts Only".

I wanted to stride up to him and kick the bastard in the face. Unfortunately, he was right. Cruisers bring nothing to PvE that does a better job than a max DPS escort.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,133
# 12
02-11-2013, 06:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
I was in the EliteSTF channel the other day when a guy advertised for a team and demanded:

"CSE: Escorts Only".

I wanted to stride up to him and kick the bastard in the face. Unfortunately, he was right. Cruisers bring nothing to PvE that does a better job than a max DPS escort.
well, cure space elite is somewhat an extreme example...there is nothing to tank in there. There is nothing hard hitting in there except the negh'vars, but those have relatively low HP and their dmg can be avoided if the grp is spread out. Also tanking them makes no sense because of their special ability...even if aggrod.
Also, but this comes with a big "maybe" and i doubt it myself actually...he was an engi in a cruiser?
The cubes actually do not return fire until fired upon, and the fact that they do not move simply means that you can avoid their fire almost completely until the nanites are gone.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 02-11-2013 at 06:08 AM.
Commander
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# 13
02-11-2013, 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by natejam101 View Post
What is the point of an Engineer/Cruiser in an Elite STF when the other 4 members are Tactical Officers flying escorts and can 4 man the thing just as quick as they could with me helping?
I think the design that lied us into this situation has no point at all, just like many things in the game: accident after accident since the game was first released, without any point, and random stuff -more accidents- to disimulate the previous unsolved accidents.


Cruisers is not the only thing that would require a top priority check in a game overhaul redesign.
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# 14
02-11-2013, 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
well, cure space elite is somewhat an extreme example...there is nothing to tank in there. There is nothing hard hitting in there except the negh'vars, but those have relatively low HP and their dmg can be avoided if the grp is spread out. Also tanking them makes no sense because of their special ability...even if aggrod.
Also, but this comes with a big "maybe" and i doubt it myself actually...he was an engi in a cruiser?
The cubes actually do not return fire until fired upon, and the fact that they do not move simply means that you can avoid their fire almost completely until the nanites are gone.
Everything you just said reinforces my point that the player in question wanted to complete the STF as quickly as possible, and he knew that can best be done with escorts. The same goes for every STF. I once did all three on elite with a group entirely composed of Galaxy-Rs. We got the optional every time, but each time left us with only a couple of minutes to spare. The sad reality is that escorts make the job quick and easy, and people hate wasting time.
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# 15
02-11-2013, 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
the text in red basically dismantles your own rant...a dedicated tank (you as an engi in a cruiser) is more than capable to hold aggro and stay alive while the escorts take ZERO damage. 6 points in threat control and a half decend build guarantees that.
"Tank and spank" at its finest, it doesn't get more easy.

never ever run a healing support cruiser, allways go for dmg/tank combo...support cruisers are useless in PVE that is for sure.

But what happens if that's the role you would like to do? I want to be damn near indestructible so I can use my ship in PvP and keep team mates alive, it doesn't work in HSE as the damage that hits them is so huge even if I have Th+

also consider that "holding aggro" is not equal to doing alot of dmg.




dumb idea to begin with anyway, result shouldn't have been a surprise. consider this, in any other MMO you do not go into a dungeon instance with only healers or only tanks, why would you do it in sto? makes entirely no sense.

Nice of you to offer your opinion of our intelligence. It was done for a test to see just what would happen, we never expected to complete


as i said before, a properly specced engi in a cruiser (by that i do not mean a support cruiser) can focus aggro on itself, while the rest of the team is undisturbed to take down targets...actually they can spare their heals on the tank.

Not in HSE or NWS, to a certain extent yes but you cannot be everywhere all the time, your team mates are popping whilst you heal others or you pop yourself and then they have no help at all for whatever the respawn time is

the 250k torpedos are intentioned to be shot down anyway, so to get hit by those is a players own fault. Basically any ship does enough dmg to take them down in time.
and before the infamous "invis torpedo" is added to the discussion...that is hardly a measure, because it happens once every 5 runs at max.

I am sure you are able to hit every 250K torp on route to you with ease, but many other players are busy focusing on something else and do not always notice it


the real problem is, that 90% of cruisers you see (and engi captains) do not fill their intentional role in the grp and that is tanking, period.
If you want to be a DD in space combat, fly an escort, or atleast one of the more hybrid cruisers (battle cruisers on the KDF side)
This is the thrust of this thread, some people would like to have a very very tough ship that can heal and dish out a respectable amount of damage too. I don't see it's too much to ask, it would fit in with canon better.

I do not thing the OP was "ranting" as you say in your rather aggressive post, I think he has made a valid point that has been said many times. New players must be constantly disapponted by engineers in cruisers after watching their fave shows for so long only to find out STO is so different.

I do not play other MMOs, have no interest in them and therefore draw no comparisons with them, I am only intrested in STO and how the Devs design the ships and abilities that allow us to fulfil our wishes as captains.

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Captain
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# 16
02-11-2013, 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
This is the thrust of this thread, some people would like to have a very very tough ship that can heal and dish out a respectable amount of damage too. I don't see it's too much to ask, it would fit in with canon better.

I do not thing the OP was "ranting" as you say in your rather aggressive post, I think he has made a valid point that has been said many times. New players must be constantly disapponted by engineers in cruisers after watching their fave shows for so long only to find out STO is so different.

I do not play other MMOs, have no interest in them and therefore draw no comparisons with them, I am only intrested in STO and how the Devs design the ships and abilities that allow us to fulfil our wishes as captains.
though ship + heal + respectale dmg means an OP design. actually this is just what you claim escorts are right now.
If the OP's post wasn't ranting about his underpowered cruiser what is "ranting" anyway. And i'm not the only one suggesting that the claims he made are entirely subjective and have their origin with his style of playing and build.


if you don't play other MMOs or RPGs then ofcourse you can't understand the comparison i made. Still they are spot on, and explain the design intentions behind the ship types very well and why they cannot and will never be like they are seen in the movies and series.

and the case that escorts (Damage dealers) dominate PVE is not unique to STO anyway. In basically any other MMO, once you outgear the content tanks become more or less useless. Nothing else has happened in STO.
Infact the content was so drastically nerfed down during the last year that this process of outgearing content has come to a point where you don't even need gear to do rather than just experiance at the encounter to succeed.
Going into HSE with heal/support cruisers only to see if it could be done is questionable at best. What would you call somebody that does something that he knows is bound to fail? You may call it brave, but since nothing of any importance was at stake...
also i didn't call you or your friends dumb...just the idea to do HSE with heal/support cruisers only. Thats why i wrote dumb idea in the first place...which brings me to the notion i made an aggresive post, which i didn't. i expressed my opinion about the subject, which i found completely invalid.

Quote:
Everything you just said reinforces my point that the player in question wanted to complete the STF as quickly as possible, and he knew that can best be done with escorts. The same goes for every STF. I once did all three on elite with a group entirely composed of Galaxy-Rs. We got the optional every time, but each time left us with only a couple of minutes to spare. The sad reality is that escorts make the job quick and easy, and people hate wasting time.
it is true that most stfs do not require a dedicated tank anymore, since they were nerfed down completely since december 2011 when they were released. (enemys at lvl 52)
But that doesn't mean that cruisers don't have a place as tanks in it.
maybe i explained my point badly, but there is nothing so fundamentally wrong with engis or cruisers that was presented by the OP and others. Cruisers have a place as tanks in PVE also in those hopelessly overgrinded stfs. If anybody feels he doesn't need a tank in his grp anymore, because he can mitigate the dmg with his escort, so be it, means he has somewhat mastered his ship or build. That doesn't mean engis and cruisers are underpowered or worthless in stfs.
I cherisch the people that come to an stf and fullfil the role of tank, makes the job of escorts even easier. For instance: i can shoot the gate or cube from 1km distance without the need to keep moving or to get out of 10km once i draw aggro...that alone increases grp dps far more than one additional escort that needs to move out of range once it got aggro.

the only problem i see is the grp matchmaking system that basically allows 5 tanks to be in one grp, and thats obviously flawed. if something needs to be changed it is there, proper grp constelations. Like basically in any other MMO out there.

PS: however i do support the idea of giving all cruisers atleast 8 turnrate. 6 turnrate is way too little, in any other MMO that would mean that the tank runs and turns only at half speed compared to all others. If all cruisers on fed side could have +2 turnrate we would see far less ranting about those ships in a matter of days and would have little to no consequenz to the intended design idea.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 02-11-2013 at 07:59 AM.
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# 17
02-11-2013, 08:05 AM
Thanks for your reply, you make good points, I certainly support the turnrate but in addition I think we need to see beams doing a lot more damage, they should be close to but not exceeding DHCs, perhaps the same as SCs. In the show a phaser beam was a devastating weapon, in STO it merely tickles an oponent.

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Captain
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# 18
02-11-2013, 08:17 AM
Strange, I am one of the top two even with 4 tacs with me. And thats with an eng on a cruiser. Maybe you are flying it wrong?

But there is one viable way to easily balance things. Of course, escorts can do more damage, but they are also more squishi. But you wont get a penalty for dying. Components are cheap. So, raise their price, then it becomes a penalty. 100k vor a minor and 200k for a major would be appropriate.

Your only problem is, you dont make the same damage, but you also wont die (at least not that easily), but they dont get a penalty.


Ah yeah, we did Hive with 2 Cruisers and 3 Sci-ships (no tactician) and were able to do all optionals. I think we had 2 death, but 1 against an overload and 1 against the queen (you know, the aceton assimilator explosion she uses). So, they are not useless. That is, if you know how to fly them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
Thanks for your reply, you make good points, I certainly support the turnrate but in addition I think we need to see beams doing a lot more damage, they should be close to but not exceeding DHCs, perhaps the same as SCs. In the show a phaser beam was a devastating weapon, in STO it merely tickles an oponent.

You know, before they nefed beams, cruiser were actually stronger than escorts in defense and offense? Wouldnt want to see that again. They are still far superior than escorts in the defense, but only a bit inferior in offense. Cruiser can tank three times as much as an escort while doing 0.75 of the damage of an escort. If you see that ratio, it becomes clear, they are still superior.
And no, phaser beams werent so powerful. Torpedos were. And cannons (you know the ones of the defiant as example).
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Last edited by woodwhity; 02-11-2013 at 08:21 AM.
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# 19
02-11-2013, 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodwhity View Post
snip
FaWing things your team-mates already put APB on does not make you king of the DPS hill, sorry.

And as for tanking I do it in ESTFs all the time. With an Engineer in a steamrunner. Already had ranks in threat control and didn't feel like respeccing, grabbed a +th console and it works just fine.
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# 20
02-11-2013, 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
FaWing things your team-mates already put APB on does not make you king of the DPS hill, sorry.

And as for tanking I do it in ESTFs all the time. With an Engineer in a steamrunner. Already had ranks in threat control and didn't feel like respeccing, grabbed a +th console and it works just fine.
Actually its more the other way around. Putting APB with FAW on all targets in range And using both as often as possible. And when I am alone with a transformator, normally there are yellow numbers over the target from 1400 to 1600 uncritical. You know, alone, without anyone (else) shooting on it.

Ah, and never have a hard time getting aggro, with 6 points in thread control, without +th console, but with my own damage.
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