Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
Attack Pattern Beta increases the whole team's damage against hull by ?%

Tachyon Beam should increase the whole team's damage against shields.

That way it might be a support power worth using.

(Are there currently any abilities that increase damage against shields anyway?)
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 2
02-02-2013, 11:29 AM
It already is a power worth using, at least in PvE. I can keep shields completely stripped off any NPC I fight in STO. Some bosses take longer to strip, but I can still strip their shields off eventually.

So I wouldn't want Tachyon Beam changed. A new power like what you propose would be nice though.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 3
02-02-2013, 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by allocater View Post
Attack Pattern Beta increases the whole team's damage against hull by ?%

Tachyon Beam should increase the whole team's damage against shields.

That way it might be a support power worth using.
Interesting idea! I like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
It already is a power worth using, at least in PvE. I can keep shields completely stripped off any NPC I fight in STO. Some bosses take longer to strip, but I can still strip their shields off eventually.
Gonna have to sorta disagree with you there.

With my ship absolutely maxed on flow caps, tachyon beam 1 drains 350 shield per second, for 10 seconds, with a 30 second cooldown time. This is an ability with a 90 degree firing arc and which serves absolutely no purpose except to drain shields. But your team's escorts don't even notice as they core through the target's shields with 15K damage per second pouring through their dual cannons. A tractor beam+tractor doff, while still draining a basically irrelevant amount of strength, has a wide variety of other things you can do with it using the same cooldown profile and 360 degree targeting.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 4
02-02-2013, 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Interesting idea! I like it.



Gonna have to sorta disagree with you there.

With my ship absolutely maxed on flow caps, tachyon beam 1 drains 350 shield per second, for 10 seconds, with a 30 second cooldown time. This is an ability with a 90 degree firing arc and which serves absolutely no purpose except to drain shields. But your team's escorts don't even notice as they core through the target's shields with 15K damage per second pouring through their dual cannons. A tractor beam+tractor doff, while still draining a basically irrelevant amount of strength, has a wide variety of other things you can do with it using the same cooldown profile and 360 degree targeting.
Well two things two consider:

1. You can double-up both Tractor Beam and Tachyon Beam. I do and I only have 5 seconds of down-time for Tachyon Beam in between uses. If you have enough points in Subspace Decompiler, you can have a permanently "on" tractor beam.

2. Both of these abilities drain shields from all 4 shield facings at once. This is something I think a lot of people overlook. It isn't 350 shields per second for 10 seconds, its 1400 shields per second for 10 seconds. Because of this, I consider either of these abilities a good counter to Tactical Team, one of the most favored abilities to use in the game. Redistributing shields is meaningless when you can lay waste to all 4 facings at once.

Which is why the Tractor Beam + Tachyon Beam combo is my favorite ability combo to use. Yes Escorts out DPS me, but in groups I make their job faster and easier - and when I'm around bosses die a lot faster.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 5
02-03-2013, 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
2. Both of these abilities drain shields from all 4 shield facings at once. This is something I think a lot of people overlook. It isn't 350 shields per second for 10 seconds, its 1400 shields per second for 10 seconds.

I didn't overlook it, 1400 per second is just small potatoes for PVE. A single dual beam or dual cannon with full weapon power and a few tactical consoles behind it will do comparable damage, and you're only draining like that while the abilities aren't on cooldown. You have to compare the relatively small shield drain of tachyon beam to the benefits of Energy Siphon and Tyken's Rift that you could have instead. Those abilities reduce all of the target's capabilities, not only their shield performance but also their movement and firepower. And they remain relevant during the entire fight, not just while the target has shields up.

But if you're PVP, that would be the basis of our disagreement. PVP is a completely different game that plays by completely different rules.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,681
# 6
02-03-2013, 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
2. Both of these abilities drain shields from all 4 shield facings at once. This is something I think a lot of people overlook. It isn't 350 shields per second for 10 seconds, its 1400 shields per second for 10 seconds. Because of this, I consider either of these abilities a good counter to Tactical Team, one of the most favored abilities to use in the game. Redistributing shields is meaningless when you can lay waste to all 4 facings at once.
A) As has been said, weapons vastly outperform this. A single DHC supported by EPtW will do 1400 DPS while on target. Also, Tachyon beam is useless against half PvE critters since they lack shields.

B) How the heck did you get to 1400 drain per second? When I tested Tachyon 3 with maxed Flow caps and about 2 Flow cap consoles (and max Aux power), I got to 700 drain per second.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix: Bring in the Allegiance class
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia: Design that long overdue Tier 5 C-Store Raptor
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var: Give us Asylums for Romulans

Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 7
02-03-2013, 07:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by toiva View Post
A) As has been said, weapons vastly outperform this. A single DHC supported by EPtW will do 1400 DPS while on target. Also, Tachyon beam is useless against half PvE critters since they lack shields.

B) How the heck did you get to 1400 drain per second? When I tested Tachyon 3 with maxed Flow caps and about 2 Flow cap consoles (and max Aux power), I got to 700 drain per second.
The Tachyon Beam tooltip reports its damage to 1 shield facing. It actually hits all 4 facings so like I was saying to momaw it wouldn't be 350 damage per second like the tooltip said, its actually 350x4 (1400) damage per second. I think any bridge officer ability that does over 1k damage per second, even if it is just against shields, is worthwhile.

I don't argue that energy weapons function better, but that doesn't make a shield drain build using Tachyon Beam invalid. You can use both on one ship. On my Orb Weaver I use 6 polarons, with 3 polaron consoles, and 75 weapons / 25 shields / 25 engine / 75 auxiliary. With the right skill choices and emergency powers I can keep my weapons and auxiliary power over 100 nearly all the time.

But like you said, if a dual cannon easily outclasses Tachyon Beam, maybe Tachyon Beam needs a little buff to it's shield drain. Just because it's not draining enough shields to be considered "effective" doesn't mean all shield drain skills are worthless.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,681
# 8
02-03-2013, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
The Tachyon Beam tooltip reports its damage to 1 shield facing. It actually hits all 4 facings so like I was saying to momaw it wouldn't be 350 damage per second like the tooltip said, its actually 350x4 (1400) damage per second. I think any bridge officer ability that does over 1k damage per second, even if it is just against shields, is worthwhile.

I don't argue that energy weapons function better, but that doesn't make a shield drain build using Tachyon Beam invalid. You can use both on one ship. On my Orb Weaver I use 6 polarons, with 3 polaron consoles, and 75 weapons / 25 shields / 25 engine / 75 auxiliary. With the right skill choices and emergency powers I can keep my weapons and auxiliary power over 100 nearly all the time.

But like you said, if a dual cannon easily outclasses Tachyon Beam, maybe Tachyon Beam needs a little buff to it's shield drain. Just because it's not draining enough shields to be considered "effective" doesn't mean all shield drain skills are worthless.
Of course shield drain builds aren't invalid. But you just need a lot more draining than Tachyon beam.

And yes, in PvE, Tachyon beam (I believe as well as Charged particle burst) are underpowered. Not sure about PvP.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix: Bring in the Allegiance class
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia: Design that long overdue Tier 5 C-Store Raptor
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var: Give us Asylums for Romulans

Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 9
02-03-2013, 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by toiva View Post
Of course shield drain builds aren't invalid. But you just need a lot more draining than Tachyon beam.

And yes, in PvE, Tachyon beam (I believe as well as Charged particle burst) are underpowered. Not sure about PvP.
Pre-S7 CPB was almost decent, with 90 Aux and ~130 skill I could take off half a facing on a probe or non-ESTF sphere with CPB1. But it got nerfed, hard, so now I can't even tell that I've used it with 125 Aux, so I switched to Energy Siphon.

Of course, it's not just shield drain abilities that are underpowered, it's most sci abilities. A sci ship should be able to almost shut down an opponent with drains and disables, hold them in place almost indefinitely, or strip their shields faster than an escort can, depending on build. As long as it can't, escorts will remain the kings of PvE, closely followed by cruisers. And rather than making any attempt to deal with this problem, they gave us the Vesta, which gets its potency by using DHCs that run off Aux power, a capability denied to any other ship.

(Oh, and why is the enemy debuff/force multiplier APB a tac ability in the first place? It's so clearly within the purpose of offensive sci, but I guess it's just too good for us.)
Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5
# 10
02-07-2013, 10:00 AM
this makes me sad because I was building my science character around shield stripping with a tachyon beam 3 and 2 tractor beams.

but yeah I guess that's just doing what an escort can do only worse. Maybe I'll try a drain build with syphone and tykens rift instead...I was just trying to stay away from abilities with 3 minutes cool downs. I'd like to find something that is uniquely science because I love the looks of the ships and the concept.

* I was trying to create a thread with my build to get feedback, but apparently despite being a paying member for a week now I don't have permission to create threads.

Last edited by slagdanny; 02-07-2013 at 10:03 AM.
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