Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,038
# 1 The IMF Wants You...
02-12-2013, 05:44 AM
Good morning/afternoon/evening <insert salutation and last name here>.

Your mission <insert first name here>, should you choose to accept it - is to correct the Tholians latest attempt at corrupting the timeline.

The Tholians are up to their same old tricks once again, and this time they've targeted the game Star Trek Online. They have perversed the timeline and changed the nature of ships in the game.

We have images of the whiteboard where the developers at Cryptic were planning out the base three types of ships: Escorts, Cruisers, and Science Vessels. They were planning on all three ships being able to do the same amount of damage over the period of an encounter.

The Escort would have the most spike damage, but because of the limited survivability of the ship - it would have to withdraw or it would be destroyed. This would reduce it's overall potential DPS and balance the amount of spike damage it was capable of doing.

The Cruiser would have the most survivability, but because of this high amount of survivability it would not be able to do spike damage. It would apply pressure damage, and because of it's ability to stay in the fight - this would balance out in the end against the Escort that could not.

The Science Vessel would come with a bag of tricks, allowing it to meet the overall DPS of both the Escort and the Cruiser at the end of an encounter. Through skillful application of both debuffs and buffs, the Science Vessel could match overall damage.

However, Tholian agents have suggested several additions to the developers which they have implemented.

Magic wand healing allowing other ships to eliminate the Escorts need to withdraw or be destroyed. Massive increases to survivability in the form of both gear and passive abilities, which has eliminated the Escorts need for somebody else to do the magic wand healing outside of the most extreme cases.

With their own additional survivability and magic wands, Science Vessels have taken up that role. With Science Captains at the helm, players have found them to be the sole counter against the change in the system.

If the Tholians are allowed to continue their devious work, neither Cruisers nor Engineers will be part of the vocabulary.

<insert first name here>, we need you and your team to go back in time to put a stop to the Tholians, prevent them from doing additional damage, and to correct the damage they have already done. All ship types and captain careers should have overall equal value - situations may favor one over the other, but in the end because of the varied situations there should be a need for all and everything should be able to be accomplished by mixes of ships and captains.

As always, should you or any of your team be caught or killed, the original poster will disavow any knowledge of your actions.

This post will be moved, merged, or deleted by moderators in five minutes...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 2
02-12-2013, 05:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Good morning/afternoon/evening <insert salutation and last name here>.

Your mission <insert first name here>, should you choose to accept it - is to correct the Tholians latest attempt at corrupting the timeline.

The Tholians are up to their same old tricks once again, and this time they've targeted the game Star Trek Online. They have perversed the timeline and changed the nature of ships in the game.

We have images of the whiteboard where the developers at Cryptic were planning out the base three types of ships: Escorts, Cruisers, and Science Vessels. They were planning on all three ships being able to do the same amount of damage over the period of an encounter.

The Escort would have the most spike damage, but because of the limited survivability of the ship - it would have to withdraw or it would be destroyed. This would reduce it's overall potential DPS and balance the amount of spike damage it was capable of doing.

The Cruiser would have the most survivability, but because of this high amount of survivability it would not be able to do spike damage. It would apply pressure damage, and because of it's ability to stay in the fight - this would balance out in the end against the Escort that could not.

The Science Vessel would come with a bag of tricks, allowing it to meet the overall DPS of both the Escort and the Cruiser at the end of an encounter. Through skillful application of both debuffs and buffs, the Science Vessel could match overall damage.

However, Tholian agents have suggested several additions to the developers which they have implemented.

Magic wand healing allowing other ships to eliminate the Escorts need to withdraw or be destroyed. Massive increases to survivability in the form of both gear and passive abilities, which has eliminated the Escorts need for somebody else to do the magic wand healing outside of the most extreme cases.

With their own additional survivability and magic wands, Science Vessels have taken up that role. With Science Captains at the helm, players have found them to be the sole counter against the change in the system.

If the Tholians are allowed to continue their devious work, neither Cruisers nor Engineers will be part of the vocabulary.

<insert first name here>, we need you and your team to go back in time to put a stop to the Tholians, prevent them from doing additional damage, and to correct the damage they have already done. All ship types and captain careers should have overall equal value - situations may favor one over the other, but in the end because of the varied situations there should be a need for all and everything should be able to be accomplished by mixes of ships and captains.

As always, should you or any of your team be caught or killed, the original poster will disavow any knowledge of your actions.

This post will be moved, merged, or deleted by moderators in five minutes...
will it be merged with my "across the board hull nerf to escorts" thread?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,038
# 3
02-12-2013, 05:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild1 View Post
will it be merged with my "across the board hull nerf to escorts" thread?
I'm kind of surprised they haven't merged all of the Cruiser, Escort, and Science Vessel threads into one. For the most part, it's a case of a lot of folks recognizing there is an issue and coming at it from different angles - while there are those denying there is any issue in multiple threads, eh?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 4
02-12-2013, 07:47 AM
i liked the mission impossible 88 tv show the show from 60's had also his charm but the movies are just awful
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,307
# 5
02-12-2013, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Good morning/afternoon/evening <insert salutation and last name here>.
S N I P !

This post will be moved, merged, or deleted by moderators in five minutes...
I don't think we can blame the Tholians. Look at the things that don't seem to be working quite right. Perhaps they seem to be working to well, like healing or resistances. Okay so we're looking at how strong those are. Hmmm.

Okay take a look at a full health full resistance cruiser or carrier being destroyed in 2 seconds flat. Hmmm. Double hmmm. How can that be? How can healing and resistances be so strong on the one hand, yet so pathetically weak on the other?

Its because of the way acc/def/crit relate to each other. That is the only reason. That's the root.

As crit damage spiraled up the ONLY controls the devs used to mitigate it was through turning up the resistance values, hull values, and shield mods on the ship models themselves. This was absolutely tragic for cruisers, as all that netted them was large slow hulls that made thier defense deficit even more woeful. Even for Scis it was no great boon as it became apparent that even with capped resistances tactical team was required to balance the shields fast enough to hold off an alpha induced crit death.

So now we have a situation where "resistances are to strong, and healing is op".

No you don't. Because it can be CLEARLY demonstrated that that is not true. What IS true is that those values have been turned up so high to offset the huge weakness of cruisers and scis due to acc/def/crit. Such huge resistances make NON Alpha level damage trivial. Fix acc/def/crit and you can begin to back off of this foolishness where everyship in the game can run around res capped yet STILL be one shot.

So to be REALLY CRYSTAL CLEAR, resistances and healing isn't out of hand, acc/def/crit IS.

Oh and as a funny aside. Resistance on the hull work so crazy well for escorts because they've already got evasion on thier side. And we know resistances diminish so you get more out of it per point invested the lower you start on the scale. So extra points that escorts put in via consoles or abilities will net a better return than what Cruisers get.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,899
# 6
02-12-2013, 08:19 AM
So the TLDR; version is something like this:

"I think Escorts are too strong, my cruiser is weak, and the abilities on sci ships need a buff"?
My name may say "PWE member", but I will never be.
-NEVER Forget the Screwups and ignorance made towards the people who supported the game through 2011
Don't look silly, don't call it "Zen-Store" - Don't waste devs time, Post proper bug-reports
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,852
# 7
02-12-2013, 08:39 AM
The only real solution is to un-nerf Viral Matrix back to it's post launch, pre season 1 days.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,980
# 8
02-12-2013, 08:41 AM
Why would the International Monetary Fund want me?
Sometimes I think I play STO just to have stuff to rant about on the forums!

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,038
# 9
02-12-2013, 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
/snip

So to be REALLY CRYSTAL CLEAR, resistances and healing isn't out of hand, acc/def/crit IS.

/snip
See, I think of it as a cumulative effect of everything. It's Star Yo-Yo: Online instead of Star Trek: Online.

Accuracy and Defense have been around. Yep, there's new stuff that's adding even more Acc/Def...but those gains have been more balanced, no? There's been the Defense issue that Cruisers/Science might experience because of the lack of APO (as well as APO being bugged and giving 15s of +Defense instead of 5s). They've had to pump more Eng Power to get to 24 impulse because of impulse modifiers and not suffer a penalty to their bonus Defense.

But they're also more likely to be flying around doing their NASCAR LTO only thing instead of having to slow down to stick on a target with that 45 arc.

24 impulse will get you +45% Bonus Defense on Cruisers/Science Vessels. It gets you +55% on Escorts. Of course, that +10% is helpful in trying to offset the loss of bonus they take while dorking about with the 45 arc. Course, that 45 arc was supposed to be offsetting the higher damage of the DHCs...but hey, that's another discussion. That +10% for Escorts is only while they're moving though.

So without anything else, they'll be at the same -15% Bonus Defense as anybody else if you decide to make them not move. Course, odds are they're running dual APO and may even have PH to boot - so they're not likely to decide to let you decide not to make them move. Course, chain SNBs/VMs/etc/etc - they'll sit there, all pretty and what not.

But that's PvP - NPCs won't do that...so yeah, they're more or less free to flit about as they see fit.

Of course, anybody can pick up Elusive for +10% (counts even while sitting still) as well as put 9 in Maneuvers for another +15% (counts even while sitting still) - so anybody can get to +10% while sitting still instead of the -15%. Heck, add in the Aegis engines and you're at +15% while sitting still instead of -15%.

My guy in the Chel flies around at +90% base with dual APO and PH. Nifty in PvE - subject to chained SNBs/VMs/etc in PvP...oh well. My guy in the Kamarag flies around at +70% base...no APO if he gets in trouble. But he's not sporting Aegis nor is he in an Escort. Both of them have +25% base bonus accuracy. If they were to shoot at each other, not taking into account weapon mods (which the devs have asked us to stay tuned to them being fixed)...

Chel @ Kama: 69% chance to hit
Kama @ Chel: 61% chance to hit

Course, they're both using ACCx2 - so it's actually 80% and 69%. And of course, that's only if they're able to keep puttering about at a minimum of 24 impulse (more doesn't matter, only less does).

If the Kama's sitting still, the Chel has a 100% chance to hit and some juicy overflow. +1.574% CrtH and +6.296% CrtD.

If the Chel's sitting still, the Kama has a 100% chance to hit and some juicy overflow. +1.538% CrtH and +6.153% CrtD.

Either guy firing on somebody at -15% Bonus Defense because of no traits, skills, gear? 100% chance to hit with +1.718% CrtH and +6.875% CrtD.

Now for the part I'm about to go through, I could definitely see where one could make the case for ACC/DEF being part of the issue...and well, without them - we couldn't get to the next issue...but still, man the next bit's just so juicy.

CrtH. What weapon favors CrtH? Cannons. What are the best cannons? DHCs, baby! Beam Arrays take your place in the rear..we're talking DHCs! Course, while not exclusive to Escorts - you're mostly going to find them on Escorts.

So here we are - in a time of Happy Time in the Pants for Escortjocks. Who isn't running at least 8.9% base CrtH from the Rom passive, Tachyo, Borg, and 0Point, eh? Heck, even those poor guys with the Arrays probably are.

Now for a little aside - Rom BOFFs. Yep, Cryptic's changing them so they stack properly - lowering the actual +CrtH from each but adding in some +CrtD to offset that.

Now, some folks out there only have room for a single Tac BOFF.
Then there's the folks with two Tac BOFFs. Yay, them.
Course, there's really only one group of folks that have three Tac BOFFs.

They just happen to be the folks that are using the DHCs. Oh snap! Like I said... "Happy Time in the Pants" for Escortjocks.

So wham, bam, thank you ma'am... Mo' Dmg, Mo' Dmg, Mo' Dmg! Well, more so for these guys than those guys sulking back in the corner.

Which brings us back to ACC 'n DEF. While the ACC/DEF thing hasn't really changed - the significance of it has...because of the CrtH.

But I don't think it stops there...because it doesn't stop there. Cause that's not all that has been done.

First though, yes - Escorts should do more damage than Cruisers. I don't get why anybody would argue that in this game. Other games, perhaps - but not STO. Still though, the issue arises in the bump everybody potentially got with the additional CrtH. Not all bumps were created anywhere near equal.

Okay, so moving on - resistances and healing and all that good stuff. What is it balanced against? Was it balanced against the bump the Escorts got or the bump that Cruisers got? Who got the most out of that?

Lots of folks will say Escorts did. Personally, I think Sci got more out of it than Escorts did. I mean, look at those awesome shield modifiers on Sci vessels, eh? Then look at the mods on Escorts. Sure, sure - they definitely helped Escorts out - but not like they helped out Sci. They definitely helped Sci out more than they did those snoozers.

So dancing over to the PvP side for a moment, they buffed the damage of the Kill Guys and they buffed the survivability of the Set Up The Kill Guys. Well, one might say that really hasn't changed much, right? Bill Nye then Spike...score one for the home team!

Thing is, Cruisers still loitered around the area. People would bemoan the fact that folks only wanted them as healers - there's no place for tanks in PvP and pressure damage started dying off a long time ago. But yep, they'd be there as the tanky healers. But wait...Sci is tankier now - oozing that additional survivability. Sure, one might say that they're not as tanky as that Cruiser...but the Cruiser's not bringing Bill Nye's Bag o' Dirty Tricks with it.

Dancing back over to PvE and...funny, it's not really that much different. Bill Nye and Escortjock have got it covered.

But, but, but... well, there are a few buts involved here.

TBH, in PvE - for the majority of it - you can get the optionals done with a ragtag bunch of folks that at least have a clue as to what's going on. You're not going to get it done in 5 minutes or so, but you can get it done. It's really only going to be a problem amongst the impatient crowd that wants it done in 5 minutes and considers success at 10 minutes to be a failure. They're out there... trippy, eh? Yeah, they're really out there.

PvP on the other hand? It matters a great deal unless you're just doing some wheeeeee I'm flying a starship and Cryptic gives me a shiny sticker whether I win or lose... but hey, a lot of folks do just that. More power to them - it's a game and folks should have those wheeeeee moments.

As Cryptic continues to add "goodies" to the game - the disparity in damage is only going to grow more - the disparity in survivability is only going to shrink more...possibly until the point that it grows in some twisted fashion with Cruisers not only being the ships that do the least damage - but also the ships with the least survivability. Some would say that's already the case, because of how sluggish they are... I'm not quite there yet, personally - I hull tank Tact Cubes with my pinkytoe while eating Cheetos and drinking some diet Mountain Dew. But still... that's where it is heading.

So, to the other poster in this thread - mentioning that I wanted to nerf this, buff that, and Cruisers were weak...well, perhaps instead of doing the TLDR thing, perhaps they might have wanted to read. Cause, man 'o man - this beauty's what TLDR's were made for - but I'm not doing one. Tough day old Epohh poo.

It's not about nerfing Escorts, Sci, or Cruisers. It's not about buffing Escorts, Sci, or Cruisers. It's about the epic /picard while trying to figure out what Cryptic was thinking with all the other crap they're doing...

...okay, guess that was a TLDR. Meh.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,307
# 10
02-12-2013, 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
See, I think of it as a cumulative effect of everything.


...okay, guess that was a TLDR. Meh.
No. It isn't. Anything added AFTER the **** up that is acc/def/crit doesn't need to be considered.

It is really simple if you just keep it that way. And it works. Dont try to play around with the numbers it isn't getting you anywhere. It's plain and obvious were the issues are. The first issue, where ships vaporize, happens where defense is zero. The other, where defense is not zero, is where resistances are so high that virtually no attacks work.

You really don't need to waste your effort on math for this.

If your not talking about acc/def/crit, you're off base. Everything else is based on that. It's the underlying foundation of the system.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
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