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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,174
I posted this in the ACC thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Kind of introduces another question then, eh?

Should non-weapon abilities also have a To-Hit roll?

The min to-hit roll in the game is 25%. Can't go below that regardless of anything else.

So going back to Tom and Jerry:

Tom might have a 25% chance to hit Jerry with a weapon...
...but he's still got a 100% chance to hit Jerry with a non-weapon.
Should ACC/DEF & To-Hit Rolls apply to abilities as well?

The targeting is the same no? You target the ship - fire the weapon or you trigger the ability. One makes a to-hit roll while the other always hits... doesn't quite make sense.

Your Beam Array might miss - but that Subnucleonic Beam always hits?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 2
02-14-2013, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I posted this in the ACC thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread.



Should ACC/DEF & To-Hit Rolls apply to abilities as well?

The targeting is the same no? You target the ship - fire the weapon or you trigger the ability. One makes a to-hit roll while the other always hits... doesn't quite make sense.

Your Beam Array might miss - but that Subnucleonic Beam always hits?
This is a very good point. It's been brought up before, but it's still good. It goes back to the core design of the game, back when. Back in the day. Back when things were balanced based on captains being in the ships they were intended to be in. Things like that. For instance, the chance of getting aceton beam or sub nuc all over your escort were actually pretty slim, if you tried hard enough to avoid it. Just saying. It wasn't a 100% defense, but it was THERE, and it was intended to be that way.

Things were 'balanced' as they were around actual in game speed and firing arcs, cooldown, and frankly, what they did as an ability. Sub nuc is sort of a long ability to give it a chance of miss, no matter how strong it seems. It is also a really strong narrow arc ability to allow on an escort making it FAR easier to apply than when it's just on a SCI ship. (and I KNOW sci ships are pretty nimble, especially with a good captain, just SAYING its' easy to prove that an escort is the more agilie of the two)

Generally, I believe most of the 'magic abilites' have a longer CD than weapons fire, and are meant to be countered by abilities or using resistances via skills or consoles. Those abilities MAY NOT be working as intended though. So yah what do you do if drain resistance is broken? See I have no answer.

EDIT: I gave up on the ACC thread. How's it going over there?
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 3
02-14-2013, 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
This is a very good point. It's been brought up before, but it's still good. It goes back to the core design of the game, back when. Back in the day. Back when things were balanced based on captains being in the ships they were intended to be in. Things like that. For instance, the chance of getting aceton beam or sub nuc all over your escort were actually pretty slim, if you tried hard enough to avoid it. Just saying. It wasn't a 100% defense, but it was THERE, and it was intended to be that way.

Things were 'balanced' as they were around actual in game speed and firing arcs, cooldown, and frankly, what they did as an ability. Sub nuc is sort of a long ability to give it a chance of miss, no matter how strong it seems. It is also a really strong narrow arc ability to allow on an escort making it FAR easier to apply than when it's just on a SCI ship. (and I KNOW sci ships are pretty nimble, especially with a good captain, just SAYING its' easy to prove that an escort is the more agilie of the two)

Generally, I believe most of the 'magic abilites' have a longer CD than weapons fire, and are meant to be countered by abilities or using resistances via skills or consoles. Those abilities MAY NOT be working as intended though. So yah what do you do if drain resistance is broken? See I have no answer.
It would be a pretty complex undertaking for Cryptic based on much of that. Should certain things get bonus accuracy based on their CDs? Should certain things just eat it because they can be spammed? Would this be a major buff to Escorts and a major nerf to Science? What about Defensive abilities as well as Offensive?

But it's kind of funny, imo - a guy in a RSV could spam FAW/TS and not hit a thing on the screen but he'll have no problem landing his Tach Beam, Tractor Beam, Viral, and SNB...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
EDIT: I gave up on the ACC thread. How's it going over there?
I think different folks are arguing the same stuff on the latter pages as other folks were arguing on the earlier pages...along with some basic mechanics stuff.

You know, I've been giving some thought to the differences you and I have in regard to what's the root of the problem - and I think it's kind of chicken and egg.

ACC/DEF/Crit can definitely be the root. That root can cause most of the problems that I've brought up in various threads...

...but without those issues, ACC/DEF/Crit is not the root. It's a symptom.

Kind of like this one. If it wasn't so easy to all but negate somebody's Defense because the abilities used to do so always hit...then it wouldn't be as easy to all but negate somebody's Defense.

Addressing ACC/DEF/Crit itself though - would be the more likely undertaking Cryptic would take though... so I'd have to say after a couple of days looking at it, I'd have to concede that it's the more logical root of issues in STO than all the other stuff that I feel is off.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
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# 4
02-14-2013, 12:11 PM
Right and right. And right.

Things get VERY wierd with acc/def/crit when def is robbed. When bonus def is zero or drops below 100 (shows as negative) things get strange. Like I said, I don't have 1000's of samples yet, but it does seem to show some VERY strong crit rates and severity. But even the things we can prove about what happens in that circumstance should be reason enough to address it.

And sure, all the things you've ever said were imbalanced absolutely are. You feel those things are off and it's for a reason. Because you're RIGHT they are off. It's like doing the tango whilst juggling whilst being trundled along cross country in a wheelbarrow. Just soooo much is wrong, where to place the blame? It may not be the jugglinng.

So really the fix I've been suggesting isn't so very different from adding "hit rolls" to these other abilities, although STO actually has some very nice, elegant, and playable solutions in place for that. They really do. My suggestion is just to add sources of Defense outside of speed or special gear sets that would keep ships OUT of the danger zone of Crit Death. Keep things over 100 defense. Keep things in the center zone where damage is predictable and therefore manageable. When things are manageable and Crit damage is predictable once again, we can back off of capping every ships resistances.

So really we're looking at the same thing. Keeping ships out of the Crit Death Zone. I'd like to see that done by adding Def resources across the board to all ships, if the players choose to use it. I'd like to see Def sources outside of Speed or Gearsets. That KHG def ability is a NICE idea. I use that. Would you believe I made a video about it? Go figure. There needs to be MOAR like that, easily reachable by low level Sci and Engy slots. It can't be just Omega anymore, and it can't be based on Doffs, Rep system, or Gear Sets. It needs to be UNIVERSALLY obtainable by any ship, and that means LT or below for boff stations.

Oh and yah it really is sorta silly that beams miss yet TB nails you. I try to think of it as an abstraction whereby the beam didn't really miss, it just did no damage. If I think of it that way I feel better. Gary Gygax did a GREAT write up on that in his first editon ADD DM Guide. P.S. That's a really great read if you can get a PDF. Solid fundamentals in that book, making it a good intro to MMO theory.

Cheers!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.

Last edited by thissler; 02-14-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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# 5
02-14-2013, 01:07 PM
This is one of those things I'm long wondered about, how out of earth can you lock an escort down with a tractor beam every single time but miss often with weapons? Tractor mechanics as a whole is way broken anyway but thats just one facet of ridiculous.

Some abilities like sensor scan shouldn't miss, but sub-nuc does need to, even if it gets an acc mod or two in there. The problem is it mostly affects science, and it doesn't need any more nerfs, it needs an ability review, accuracy check and buff to compensate.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 309
# 6
02-14-2013, 01:41 PM
Not that long ago, I said that SNB (or other abilities casted against enemy) should have a chance to miss (rather then chance to hit). SNB is a beam after all. That didnt went well. Also, that would put game to a whole new lvl. Adding variable to something that is pure math, would be game breaking.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 7
02-14-2013, 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivantomdisplay View Post
Adding variable to something that is pure math, would be game breaking.
To-Hit Rolls are already RNG.
Procs are already RNG.
Crits are already RNG.
Which systems are shut down by various abilities are already RNG.
Lockboxes are RNG.
Loot tables in general are RNG.

RNG's all over the place...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 8
02-14-2013, 01:51 PM
If science abilities could miss, they'd need *much* shorter cooldowns.

With the way the game is currently balanced, if you need something like SNB to kill someone, there really isn't an alternative, so if it missed you are just screwed.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,480
# 9
02-14-2013, 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I posted this in the ACC thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread.



Should ACC/DEF & To-Hit Rolls apply to abilities as well?

The targeting is the same no? You target the ship - fire the weapon or you trigger the ability. One makes a to-hit roll while the other always hits... doesn't quite make sense.

Your Beam Array might miss - but that Subnucleonic Beam always hits?
It can get dangerous to set game play balances based on RP. But, I'll play along.

Beams weapons: Use LoS (line of sight) based on needed "target lock" can be assumed there's something equivilant to a target painter of contemporary warfare. Stealth tech in terms of shape and material could be used along w/a target's relative velocity to throw off the target painting.

SNB: The technobable could refer to targeting a ship by something that's "sub nuclear" level that can't be easily designed around or distorted, but at the same time required too much power/computation to use as a target painting beam itself.

Thinking about it though, it would be interesting if they used relative velocity instead of absolute velocity in determining hit ratios. In otherwords, 2 ships going @ the same high velocity seperated by a modest distance should be able to hit each other at the same rate as if they were not moving at all at the same distance.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 10
02-14-2013, 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Thinking about it though, it would be interesting if they used relative velocity instead of absolute velocity in determining hit ratios. In otherwords, 2 ships going @ the same high velocity seperated by a modest distance should be able to hit each other at the same rate as if they were not moving at all at the same distance.
I wonder how some folks would feel about EVEing it up a bit in STO... course, that would be kind of maddening for some if they were also to deal with weapon sizes.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
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