Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,105
# 541
02-15-2013, 07:52 AM
I will saythe BO bug has made the game more challenging lol

Is this the new elite setting now
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 77
# 542
02-15-2013, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post

There has been a lot of talk lately about the changes to the Foundry daily mission, and I wanted to take some time to give a comprehensive and complete overview of why we made this decision.

Fleet Marks were introduced in Season 6 as a reward that can be used by Fleets to advance Fleet Holdings. Due to the fact that Fleet Marks are spent by Fleets to advance Fleet Holdings, it is intended that Fleet Marks are to be rewarded for completing Fleet-based gameplay.

We monitor the amount of Fleet Marks earned by each character and each player every day. We do so for game design reasons to ensure that the amount of progress Fleets are making on Fleet Holdings is as expected.

After the release of Season 7, we noticed that the amount of Fleet Marks players were earning per day started declining. As we expected, it was mostly due to the introduction of new content and the new Reputation system. Players were now spending less time in missions that granted Fleet Marks, and more time in missions that granted Dilithium and Rep Marks. We adjusted this at the time by adding Fleet Marks to the Foundry and Fleet Action dailies. The Foundry daily subsequently was turned into a 30 minute repeatable, which made Foundry missions an amazingly easy source of Fleet Marks, but because of the drop in Fleet Marks at the time, we left it in as a temporary bonus that would last up through our Anniversary.

Concurrently, we also closed a major loophole in Foundry missions in Season 7 which removed Dilithium rewards from what many considered "exploitative" Foundry missions (literally "log in click a button" get a boat of Dilithium). The number of players who were exploiting this type of mission was vast and so there were several weeks where we aggressively adjusted Dilithium rewards in order to keep Dilithium earnings back in line with our goal of getting more Dilithium into players hands without using the exploit. Due to the tuning we?ve done with Season 7, players are now earning more Dilithium than ever without the Foundry exploit.

We know based on progression data that there is further room to add more Dilithium to the economy and so today we have added in additional rewards to Foundry missions that grant a daily amount of Dilithium in addition to scaling rewards based on the gameplay of the Foundry mission. This now makes qualified Foundry missions an excellent source of Dilithium.

As part of this change and now that we?re past our Anniversary, we have removed the wrapper mission that granted the additional 50 Fleet Marks every 30 minutes for playing a single Foundry mission. We did this for a number of reasons. While we want players to enjoy Foundry missions, they should not be the one stop shop for all Rewards in the game. They are now arguably the single best source of Dilithium per mission, and they should not also be the best source for Fleet Marks. Another reason is that Fleet Marks should be for Fleet Gameplay and we will begin adjusting where Fleet Marks are granted to keep Fleet Marks in line with our Fleet gameplay goals.

Over the next several months we will be adjusting where Fleet Marks are granted to be more in line with our original design - Fleet Marks are for Fleet Gameplay. This means that Fleet Marks will be granted in more places where Fleets group up for missions, because the reason you need Fleet Marks is to benefit the Fleet.

This leads me to a frequent Ask Cryptic question that I want to address - Why are the Fleet Holdings so challenging to complete for small Fleets?

We monitor Fleet sizes and Holding progress and we do understand that small Fleets are finding Fleet Holdings to be expensive in both Fleet Marks and Dilithium.

Let me take a moment to explain our philosophy behind the Fleet Holdings so that there is a better understanding of our actions when we adjust economies like this.

First, keep in mind that that Fleet sizes in STO range from 1 member up to 500 members.

When we were crafting the Fleet System, we considered two options for how Fleet Marks and Fleet Progression would behave. There are pro's and con's to both options we considered.

Option A was that Fleet size would determine the maximum tier for Fleet Holdings. The larger the Fleet, the higher the Fleet Holding Tiers could achieve. This is how many other MMOs gate Guild progression, but we felt that it is artificially limiting to the many active small Fleets in STO.

Option B was to allow Fleets of any size to achieve all tiers of Fleet Holdings. The drawback is that because Fleet sizes range so much, we had to find a balance so that Large Fleets had some challenge, while still allowing small Fleets to achieve all tiers, albeit at a much slower pace. If you are in a Fleet less than 25 players, then it is expected to be more challenging than the norm.

So from our perspective we choose the sensible Option B, with the goal of ensuring that our active large Fleets had a decent challenge and wouldn?t complete the Fleet Holdings overnight. It needed to be a challenge for 500 member Fleets. It is a sign that you went through extreme effort to achieve the goal.

The end result of this decision is that smaller Fleets may achieve maximum Starbase sizes, but it is expected to be much harder. You can achieve all tiers, but you are doing so at a great disadvantage, especially if you are under 25 Fleet Members or your Fleet Members don't play at least three times a week.

We understand that we could have introduced a handicap for small fleets into the design, but that solution could and would be exploited. In trying to find a way to exploit the system, we would end up having to create a wealth of rules and regulations behind how the handicap works and at the end of the day it is not in line with our goals of ensuring that top tier Fleet progression is a great accomplishment. (congrats btw to the Fleets that are just now hitting this tier!)

That said, we continue to investigate options that may help small Fleets without making it a cake-walk for Large Fleets. Because of our decision to not limit tiers based on guild size, we will not be scaling all projects based on Fleet size. What we will continue to do is find ways for small Fleets to play hard and gain the Fleet Marks and Dilithium needed to advance the Starbase. While there are always exceptions, for the most part, the data shows that small fleets are more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks. Thus we continue to add more Dilithium to help all players, and along with that, small Fleets.

Likewise, even though we've removed Fleet Marks from the now super Dilithium rich Foundry mission, we will be adding Fleet Marks to other events, but not immediately. Look for us to further classify Events and Fleet Actions as having Fleet Marks in the near future. We are also entertaining suggestions to merge fleets or other ways that small Fleets can accelerate their progress.

Just as max level players are now earning far more Dilithium than they ever have due to adjustments that we've made along the way, we will continue to adjust Fleet Marks in the same way.

Hopefully this post helps to explain our position and why we continue to make the decisions we do. We want Fleet Progression to be a reward for Fleet Gameplay. We want players to earn more Dilithium. We want Foundry missions to have useful rewards. We want small Fleets to only be limited by group effort, not by artificial caps on progress.

We will continue to make progress towards those goals and welcome your feedback. Nothing is every "final" in MMOs, and your constructive comments are always valued.

Thank you for your understanding.
With all due respect sir, the tracking data may tell you where players are and how they earn rewards, but i can tell you now it does not tell you if the player is enjoying themselves.

I come from a large fleet of 350+ members. We just hit T4 yesterday. We always have multiple fleet teams running at a time gathering resources, looking at the roster i can tell you that the fleet actions that award fleet marks are the least popular missions.

Heres the kicker, we don't choose to play these missions any more because they are extremely dull, not just because of the paltry reward for completion. They are slow, not challenging extremely repetitive, and now mandatory for progression.

The foundry was exploited, i understand that but if your roof springs a leak you repair the roof, not demolish the house!

Now, today, i can still enter the game, Que for match and sit on the spot firing cannon scatter volley into a mob of enemies that are not a challenge and wait for the mission to finish. This is one of your teams maps. Not too different from the foundry's many mob spam maps that im guessing you decided wasn't fit for fleet marks.

The foundry AI that determines rewards needs reworked. Ive just got into the foundry a couple of weeks ago and have so far published 2 maps. One of which never qualified for rewards. This was called "The Space Race" and was intended as a multiplayer racing map for starships. This map has had some really positive feedback, even from spotlight authors. The youtube video of the map in my sig has had 262 views, yet the map has been reviewed by less than 60 people.

So who is at fault exactly, when your AI will allow "clickies" or other exploits to grant rewards but a different map that is actually a blast to play with your fleet does not qualify?

I know i dont have to think about bottom lines etc etc or anything from a business standpoint but it stands to reason that people login AFTER work is to relax and have a great time, not feel like they are clocking in for their second shift!

A couple of things i would think of implementing would be...

*A unified Mark system. We dont need another 100 currency's. Ive got T5 omega and romulan, with over 6000 rep marks in total sat festering. Dont tell me to convert them it dilithium, im already sat on over 100k of ore, this never goes down!

*An Elite option for fleet events. As i stated earlier, these missions are so easy. Its like taking Nuke to a knife fight. Most of us might as well have god mode on while playing them, THATS what makes it dull and repetitive.

I still think the best reward as a player is an entertaining mission, some thing we actually want to play and enjoy playing...

Cubeageddon - You are the last hope. Find it in the Foundry!
The Space Race - An alternate to PVP - In Foundry Now!
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 358
# 543
02-15-2013, 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot View Post
If you can pull archive posts of the old forums from a cache on google or something, look for posts by CaptainQuirk.
Ahh, now I know who you are. We have crossed bat'leths many times in the past

Anyway, not to worry, your friends are waking up now, so you will not be alone in your flag waving

Originally Posted by bluedarky View Post

Nothing you've described is new to STO or any MMO, development teams have reduced awards in areas where people were farming said reward when they didn't want them farming it so much.

Besides, if Cryptic had added a patch last week that doubled FM from PvE events and gave 10 FM for every Cryptic mission you did people would still be moaning about this patch.
See.. "There here"...

P.S. Just editing in that I'm just joshing you now. You're at least making posts for your side articulately without the belittling comments (still think your talking shash though )...
P.P.S. This whole post is in response to you Quirk

Hmm, maybe I should do the same and stop winding people up...
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014

Last edited by solomace; 02-15-2013 at 08:06 AM.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6
# 544 Simply solo
02-15-2013, 08:07 AM
I logged in no matter what once per day on each of my characters to run my IOR to advance our fleet. I seldom have time to take part in group missions with fleet members as my work is pressing me at this time. With IORs I could at least make a small contribution to fleet advancement even when pressed for time. Without having to deal with bad pugs or being a poor member of a fleet team because I was distracted by phone or office door. There should be some equivalent replacement for this loss of 50 marks per day for each character that can be ran solo.

Just my 2 cents
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 545
02-15-2013, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by petst0ne View Post
I'm sad to say, but the needs of one are NOT as important as the need of the many. While this quote not only applies to you, but also to the whining foundry authors .
Most PvP'ers are part of small fleets that are trying to build themselves up, as are most players in this game. While most players of this game are not ground pvpers, another reputation for them to fill out for even better gear will still only just hinder their advancement, and kill all balance in the game.
lol love this word that people use "blance" its the cryo gun on ground and space is all about p2w ships and consoles. i do agree with what you are saying. look at the drama the rep system has caused.

but again this is not about a pvp rep system. maybe i should not have said it. im only trying to say that the sb and embassy is such a huge ec and dil sink. not to metion the fact to get crap gear for ground or space cost dil. i care less about fleet marks. dont know why people think its such a huge issue.

but the fact that elite space weps are anything but elite compared to accx3 or accx2 crith/critd or even critdx3. why would i use so much of my dil to buy space weps when i can get better space weps on the exchange?

same goes for ground. the most odd issue i think is for ground the advanced is much better then the elite. that just does not sound right. should be the other way around.

another fact is for the mk12 ground kits they picked the worse sci kit and for engys they are made usless when they pick fab kit any way. a high dps team on elite stf will never give the engy a chance to lay emplacement much less thoes emplacemts even hit a target thats still alive.

so for a sb or embassy to take such a high amount of dil and ec i do expect alot more out. of it.

lets be honest, i can just pay fleets to let me use their provisions, lets say 10 mill each. so i get myself an elite fleet shield, and a mk12 fire team kit. well thats 20 mill. i just saved myself so much ec on just 1 toon. goes to show that investing over 50mill i wasted 30 mill just to brag about a star base level. i mean just try to add up how much dil and ec you put into the star base. well that dil could have been used to convert to c-points to convert to keys to make ec. most people dont even understand how much ec they could have made if they did not sink alot of res into a star base just to get crap gear.

side note, we all invested over 400mill. who here hasent just put 200,000 into a project alone? i know i have and many others as well. look at how much dil 1 project takes. well just think if you were to even covert 60,000 dil to c-points and buy keys to sell.

Last edited by broken1981; 02-15-2013 at 08:15 AM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 36
# 546
02-15-2013, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by icerider1963 View Post
I logged in no matter what once per day on each of my characters to run my IOR to advance our fleet. I seldom have time to take part in group missions with fleet members as my work is pressing me at this time. With IORs I could at least make a small contribution to fleet advancement even when pressed for time. Without having to deal with bad pugs or being a poor member of a fleet team because I was distracted by phone or office door. There should be some equivalent replacement for this loss of 50 marks per day for each character that can be ran solo.

Just my 2 cents
I do agree with this, but I also think that with the group missions, everyone shouldn't get the same reward in the group. Lower level players, and players that didn't participate much shouldn't get as much as the others, and the people that are high level and did most of the work should get more than average.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 319
# 547
02-15-2013, 08:09 AM
Isn't the purpose of the Tribble server to test these new things so we can give feedback before the changes are made to holodeck? I mean are they actually even bothering with Tribble anymore - especially with all these releases that effect the servers, create bugs etc.

I used to think that's what test servers were for. Cryptic seems to just throw stuff out at us and hope for the best lately. Still a replacement for the lack of FM's is needed among many, many other things that need to be looked at.

Cryptic seem to like to change their story a lot too, especially way back when they built the fleet advancement system based on a 25 man fleet and above. I still think a scaling system would work, especially if the requirements were per character were higher in a smaller fleet than a larger fleet. Like someone had said a while back:

25 Members - 100k Dil / FM 500 = 4k Dil / 20 FM per char
50 Members - 180k Dil / FM 800 = 3.6k Dil / 16 FM per char
100 Members - 340k Dil / FM 1400 = 3.4k Dil / 14 FM per char.......

And so on.... then all you need to do is introduce time delay when a fleet goes down in size below a threshold. Say 1-2 weeks before the requirements get reduced to stop people trying to find an exploit.

Still the main thing that needs to be fixed is the FM's. Until then I'll be another one who won't be spending anymore money on top of what i've already spent on lifetime and extra zen in the past.

"We're doing it wrong, but it's working...."
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 627
# 548
02-15-2013, 08:11 AM
Looks like st St. Valentine's Day Massacre (patch) did other things.

People can't assign Boffs to station (even some of the posted work arounds aren't working). Some have even reported that every single Boff ability is availible to be put on task bars.

And you though PvP was bad before, lol.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 740
# 549
02-15-2013, 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Average max level player refining per day is nowhere near the cap yet. Once the average Dilithium refined per day by max level players gets closer to the cap, we'll consider it.

I appreciate that we don't always make good decisions. We do listen to feedback and we do adjust in order to make things better for everyone.
Since dilithium is a "time currency" does it not make sense for *everything* to reward at least some dilithium? Since everything we do takes up time. Since Omega Marks and Romulan Marks can both be converted to dilithium, you have those events covered. If you add dilithium to regular episodes as you spoke about earlier, you'll have that covered as well.

Also, why should it even matter what the average person is making in terms of the dilithium cap? That cap was placed there to make sure that the markets aren't flooded -- since dilithium is substantially higher in value than it was a year ago due to supply/demand, obviously adding some more dilithium to the exchange would be an acceptable adjustment. It is also a major boon to your most active players since they actually would have a reason to play beyond getting 8000 dilithium in a day. You had talked about a year ago about possibly removing the cap completely. Increasing the cap *now* is a win-win proposition.

I'd strongly suggest getting those fleet marks added into the game as soon as possible -- don't wait three months to do it in May. By then people will have just gotten frustrated with grinding the same content over and over for the low amount of fleet marks they reward. You can boost those fleet marks or reduce the FM requirements for projects by the next patch.

And lastly, a question on how do the devs envision this fleet merger to work? Is it just going to automate the process of a smaller fleets members being automatically added to a bigger fleet, with all progress from the less-advanced fleet wiped? Or will some or all of that XP be added to it?

For example:
Fleet A. 50 members. Starbase has 50k / 40k / 25k. Embassy is at 30k / 25k
Fleet B. 10 members. Starbase has 10k / 30k / 35k. Embassy is at 45k / 15k.

What happens when they merge to get Fleet C? 60 members, but will the fleet holdings be:
1. Progress combined. Starbase at 60k / 70k / 60k. Embassy at 75k / 40k
2. Highest progress kept in each track. Starbase at 50k / 40k / 35k. Embassy at 45k / 25k
3. Highest progress kept in each structure. Starbase at 50k / 40k / 25k. Embassy at 45k / 15k
4. Biggest fleet's stats stay. Starbase at 50k / 40k / 25k. Embassy at 30k / 25k.
4. Something else entirely?

These are vital questions that need to be answered and the viability of fleet mergers will live or die on how its decided.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,952
# 550
02-15-2013, 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Fact Check:

1. Fleets under 25 are going to have a hard time completing projects = by design.

2. We will be adding more Fleet Marks, just not on Foundry missions. We will be making several changes up until the May update in order to bring Fleet Mark earning back in line: including reclassifying the difference between Events and Fleet Actions, Adjusting (increasing/decreasing) Fleet Marks with a focus on giving more Fleet Marks in Fleet Based Events, Possibly merging Fleets, Possibly offering other incentives for Small Fleets.

3. Data shows, most small Fleets are far more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks. There is need for both, but more need right now for Dilithium than Fleet Marks - thus today's change. More Fleet Marks are coming - just not in Foundry play.
So small Fleets are disadvantaged, by design... interesting. Thats just typical standard MMO cattle drive politics in my opinion, thats something STO or any modern game shouldn't need.

Every time someone from Cryptic says some thing would be possible, then we can be sure it won't be in the game for at least 2 years, if ever.

Since there is the much hated 8000 Dilithium cap, there is no need to introduce much more additional dilithium sources. Most of us do reach that cap already every day.

What we need is Fleet marks, especially smaller fleets need them.

Why can't you just make Fleet marks requirements depend on Fleet size?

Good day.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
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