Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,258
# 51
02-14-2013, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by meurik View Post
See, now this is great news.... But the big question on everyones mind is: WHEN????

Changes should've been made to both ends ofthe spectrum at the same time. Not yank the reward from one place, and then arbitrarily re-add it elsewhere "sometime later on, in a few months".

Are we talking days, weeks, months???
exactly. it doesn't make sense that ANYONE would take one way of acquiring something and not replace it with something more "fleety" or acceptable to cryptic
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,060
# 52
02-14-2013, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by olivia211 View Post
Now we are stuck playing a mission we don't want to run, earning a reward we have no use for.
If you tell me who has the gun to your head I'll call in the SEAL team to come rescue you from them.
Nebula coffee is the best coffee
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 16
# 53
02-14-2013, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Fact Check:

1. Fleets under 25 are going to have a hard time completing projects = by design.

Here's another fact check. I made a starbase to tier 1 and halfway to tier 2 solo. It isn't hard but it is boring. And that was with the foundry rewards in place. Without them, it's not worth the effort, and many of us have run out of anything else to do in this game.

With all due respect Dan, I think you are all deeply out of touch with your playerbase. You quote metrics and numbers, but those don't gauge player happiness or satisfaction.

I have a challenge for you Dan. For the next week, using the fleet events, try to get 900 fleet marks. I did it last week. Just go for it. Walk in our shoes for the ten days and see what it's like. See what it makes you think of this game. See how much fun it really is. Then come back and lets have a conversation about fleet marks and internal metrics, ok?

I love Star Trek, Dan. I love Space Combat. I love this game you've created. For the last year this has been the only video game I've played, and I've financially supported. It's the only game I want to play. And yet as we speak I'm in the process of downloading The Old Republic and LOTR online. Because I'm tired of the grind, and increasing it for less rewards is not viable for me or my fleetmates. I'm logging into turn in my dilithium now, and that's it, and that's out of the optimistic hope that you're going to fix this problem soon.

The problems with all those numbers and metrics is they don't predict the future,Dan. If you looked at those metrics last week, when I was merrily grinding day and night, they wouldn't have told you that I'd be downloading your competitors product today and not playing yours, would they?

As a businessman, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms to listen to your customers first and foremost, and your numbers second. Things can change too quickly for your charts and graphs to reflect.

Thanks for your time.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 431
# 54
02-14-2013, 06:49 PM

Thank you for your quick response to this unpopular issue, I like the new rewards, but the major issue is that their is so many sinks for fleet marks and other currencies, no one is going to be thrilled when you take a source of income out of a whole reward table such as the Foundry.

This seems to be the case when so many currencies are added to the game, when the underlining issue is with so many currencies (when their should not be) causes controversy when you take a avenue of obtaining any one currency away that requires so much of it to make it useful.

Thank you.

Last edited by palpha2clearance; 02-14-2013 at 07:54 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,598
# 55
02-14-2013, 06:49 PM
First off, I'd like to thank DaStahl for his comprehensive answer. This decision has affected many players negatively, as evidenced by the huge thread from which we were redirected here. Getting a prompt answer from Cryptic is a welcome change and, i hope, a sign of things to come.
So, to the points...(I will be a bit selective, for brevitys sake)

Originally Posted by dastahl View Post

Another reason is that Fleet Marks should be for Fleet Gameplay and we will begin adjusting where Fleet Marks are granted to keep Fleet Marks in line with our Fleet gameplay goals.
Ok, I do understand your logic.......FM would, in an ideal world, be achieved by fleet actions. A change to such a system is welcome. But it needs to be wholesale, not incremental.
You've taken away a reward system that small fleets utterly rely on, and not given anything back at all at this time of writing. The change will not affect big fleets that much, but it is literally devastating to small fleets.

Over the next several months we will be adjusting where Fleet Marks are granted to be more in line with our original design - Fleet Marks are for Fleet Gameplay. This means that Fleet Marks will be granted in more places where Fleets group up for missions, because the reason you need Fleet Marks is to benefit the Fleet.
I'm sorry....months? So, small fleets are to be left with no redress for months? Why not leave things as they are until you have the new systems ready?

That said, we continue to investigate options that may help small Fleets without making it a cake-walk for Large Fleets. Because of our decision to not limit tiers based on guild size, we will not be scaling all projects based on Fleet size. What we will continue to do is find ways for small Fleets to play hard and gain the Fleet Marks and Dilithium needed to advance the Starbase. While there are always exceptions, for the most part, the data shows that small fleets are more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks. Thus we continue to add more Dilithium to help all players, and along with that, small Fleets.

You've made a serious error in judgement. The reason dilithium was the bottleneck was because we had the foundry mission for fleet marks. Check the data in the next few weeks you will see a different picture emerge. Small fleets dying for a lack of FM. Small fleets dying for a lack of FM that you say will not be rectified for months.

Likewise, even though we've removed Fleet Marks from the now super Dilithium rich Foundry mission, we will be adding Fleet Marks to other events, but not immediately.
Sorry, but again, why the delay? small fleets as you've already indicated are handicapped. What you've done with this change is handicap them even more

Just as max level players are now earning far more Dilithium than they ever have due to adjustments that we've made along the way, we will continue to adjust Fleet Marks in the same way.
Again, a laudable aim....but the timing is off. Taking away a system relied upon by small fleets with no immediate replacement makes many feel you don't want small fleets in the game.

Hopefully this post helps to explain our position and why we continue to make the decisions we do. We want Fleet Progression to be a reward for Fleet Gameplay. We want players to earn more Dilithium. We want Foundry missions to have useful rewards. We want small Fleets to only be limited by group effort, not by artificial caps on progress.
But this change has capped progress for small fleets. If your aim is to make group effort the lynchpin (and I have zero problem with that as a fleet leader) then give us the reward we need. You've taken the reward we had away, promised us a replacement (with no definite timescale) in months. Essentially you've destroyed the incentive for small fleets to work together. Other sources of FM are simply too weak. There's no incentive anymore for small fleets to work together, merely disband and join bigger fleets.

I do appreciate the desire to make fleet bases the culmination of fleets working towards a common goal. I even appreciate the concept of making fleet marks available through fleet based actions only.

But taking away the previous system with no replacement is an appalingly short sighted decision.

There will be three big losers from all this: small fleets for all the reasons outlined above, foundry authors who lobbied for the exact changes you've implmented so hastily will also be held accountable by the player base and finally your own company.

Big fleets are all well and good, but small fleets are more numerous. A lot, and i mean a LOT of paying customers feel betrayed by this decision. Many will take their business elsewhere unless the replacement systems you are promising in months aren't moved up to a matter of days or, at most, a couple of weeks away.

As someone once said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This decision is one of those paving stones.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 56
02-14-2013, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by starkaos View Post
Some players like to do only solo content so restricting Fleet Marks to group activity will severely restrict their ability to earn Fleet Marks. The only ways for them to get Fleet Marks is the Commendation XP to Fleet Marks system and Fleet dailies which don't give enough. The Foundry missions were a way to get Fleet Marks without doing content they disliked.
Well... they are called FLEET marks for a reason...
altough incresing their sources shouldn't be that difficult to do, and it should be done asap
In every time,
in every place,
the deeds of men
remain the same...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,304
# 57
02-14-2013, 06:49 PM
I don't know what kind of metrics your team is tinkering with Dan, but no one is going to wait MONTHS for these fleet mark changes. These need to be done SOON, as in between tomorrow and next Thursday.

Cryptic is swimming in shark infested waters, and you're bleeding profusely.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7
# 58
02-14-2013, 06:50 PM
As a member of a small fleet I feel discouraged to play now really. Especially since I have limited daily play time. I understand the exploit part of officer reports and why it was addressed as it was even though it does severely hurt smaller fleets. Why not look at making some of the multiplayer missions with a choose your reward type system?

By this I mean lets say I do an STF (space or ground at either difficulty). Instead of just saying here is your Omega Marks why not let the player select their reward? With that being the case you can see which missions are popular which ones are not because they are all basically on the same level rewards wise. Then you can modify the non played or hardly ever played ones to make them more enjoyable or simply remove them and have bandwidth for other new ventures.

I know I don't want to leave my fleet I am in. I know we were looking at maybe as long as 6 months to get our Tier IV starbase if everyone was active (that was with officer reports). I don't want to join another fleet just to buy a Tier IV Assault Cruiser or Tier V Intrepid. To be honest though what you are doing is encouraging people to abandon the larger picture of many fleets to a few big ones so people can have the bigger ships. Or like I have seen in game already people selling fleet invites to get Tier V ships. This defeats the purpose you have for starbases in general.

I really think the best solution you can put forth is a choose your own rewards type scenario for most events. At least then you can see what the people like and don't like more than what they are forced to do for rewards. Then you can focus more on updates towards things that people enjoy to do to keep them invested in the STO experience rather than the STO Grind.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,208
# 59
02-14-2013, 06:50 PM
I would like to see FM added to any content where fleet members are teamed up. For example. A fleet decides to run Doomsday Device. IF there are three fleet members teamed, you earn X amount of FM. If there is four members, you receive Y amount of FM. If you have a full team of fleet members, you get Z amount of FM. That way, you need at least three members in a team to earn FM. Could even make it to where if there is a non fleet member in the team, no FM would be rewarded.

As for Fleet merging, I would propose an option to Request to Merge Fleet. Similar to Invite to Fleet. Leader of Fleet A sends a request to merge with Fleet B. He/she sends the request. Leader of Fleet B accepts request and Fleet C is formed. The leaders of Fleet A and B are now leaders of Fleet C. Any asset that any of Fleet A and B had that the other didn't, belongs to the new fleet. For example: Fleet A had A Room With a View, but Fleet B didn't. Fleet B had the Aquarium but Fleet A didn't. Now Fleet C has both. Any provisions/requisitions would sum up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 186
# 60
02-14-2013, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Fact Check:

1. Fleets under 25 are going to have a hard time completing projects = by design.
That is fine, how about making it just as challenging to the 100+ man fleets? As it is now, they exploit their fleet size to make the projects as trivial as a clicky mission. The amounts needed should be based on a PER MEMBER effort. I don't want it "easy" I want it comparable Stop the large fleet exploit because all it shows us down here is that you
1. Don't care about small fleets
2. Don't understand why some prefer small fleet
3. Don't care that large fleets are making a mockery of the "effort" that it takes to get things done

Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
3. Data shows, most small Fleets are far more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks. There is need for both, but more need right now for Dilithium than Fleet Marks - thus today's change. More Fleet Marks are coming - just not in Foundry play.
I can't speak to your data as I can't see it, what I can tell you is the reason that the demand for it, is much much larger than the intake. The fact I can average 4-5K of Dill per DAY from Doffs and still run a negative number should tell you something. The fact that I have over 30K Dil waiting to refine, should also tell you something. My fleet starves from dil, because YOU have put entirely to much demand for it into the game, I would suggest instead of adding intake, you cut down demand.

Having to pay 10 and 12K dill depending on the embassy project is too much for people to do every 20 hours. Unless they use the size exploit on the fleet

In short

The current fleet system encourages folks to grow simply to exploit their size on projects to make them trivial. Reward effort, not size.
We're starved because you have put too much demand on Dilithium. Slow down the demand and the situation will change.
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