Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,930
# 631
02-15-2013, 10:48 AM
The debate about marks will continue, but I'm more concerned about how Cryptic handled this.

All I can see is that Cryptic decided to take marks away from Foundry, decided to let everyone know in the patch notes a day before the patch was to go live, and failed to include a suitable alternative for earning marks.

To me this is lazy. I actually agree that fleet marks should be out of Foundry and that the system was abused much like clickies for Dil. I do not agree that they rushed in and took it away with barely any notice, and not without another means to earn marks in place.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 238
# 632
02-15-2013, 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
Do you even realize how many Fleet ships module sales my Fleet generates for cryptic compared to yours?
Aha, so you want better treatment because you generate sales?

<-look what it says there, I actually spend real money, can I demand stuff on basis of that too?

Of course not, so stop this insulting line of argument...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,598
# 633
02-15-2013, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
where are your numbers for this simple math?

Do you even realize how many Fleet ships module sales my Fleet generates for cryptic compared to yours? Since we are able to advance our shipyard quickly, most people in my fleet own lots of fleet ships, and outsiders are sometimes able to make arrangements to join temporarily to get fleet ships. I myself own 9 fleet ships on my account, some people in my fleet own even more. You aren't likely to buy all the modules for that without unlocking high tier shipyard.

We don't need to use up all of our dil like you do either. So who do you think is grinding that dil out to sell to you on the dil exchange. Dil being put on exchange causes people to buy zen, that is also more sales for cryptic.


You fail to point out how just because each member of your small fleet has to indiviually work harder that is more profit for cryptic.

If anything your fleet is a drain on server resources compared to mine, the server has to use the same resources to generate an instance for your fleet holdings and mine, and has to use same resources to store that data. If everyone was in large fleets they might not even have to instance all our holdings and we could have persistent holdings like in other MMOs.

Maybe there should be a fleet maintenance fee to help discourage excessive fleet spam.

Ok, its good to know where you stand and what sort of person you are.

I suggest you look up the word sophistry
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 627
# 634
02-15-2013, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
where are your numbers for this simple math?

Do you even realize how many Fleet ships module sales my Fleet generates for cryptic compared to yours? Since we are able to advance our shipyard quickly, most people in my fleet own lots of fleet ships, and outsiders are sometimes able to make arrangements to join temporarily to get fleet ships. I myself own 9 fleet ships on my account, some people in my fleet own even more. You aren't likely to buy all the modules for that without unlocking high tier shipyard.

We don't need to use up all of our dil like you do either. So who do you think is grinding that dil out to sell to you on the dil exchange. Dil being put on exchange causes people to buy zen, that is also more sales for cryptic.


You fail to point out how just because each member of your small fleet has to indiviually work harder that is more profit for cryptic.

If anything your fleet is a drain on server resources compared to mine, the server has to use the same resources to generate an instance for your fleet holdings and mine, and has to use same resources to store that data. If everyone was in large fleets they might not even have to instance all our holdings and we could have persistent holdings like in other MMOs.

Maybe there should be a fleet maintenance fee to help discourage excessive fleet spam.

Hmm, I wonder what the scouter has to say about this post
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 635
02-15-2013, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
..........

And here I thought I'd already seen the most arrogant, self-centered, elitist and delusional post of the day...
No that was the guy who I replied to being arrogant saying we are exploiting by playing mmo properly and growing our fleet, and saying his small useless fleet somehow is worht more to cryptic when my fleet obviously has the ability to generate more sales for cryptic due to us being able to purchase more fleet ships.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 223
# 636
02-15-2013, 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyuui13 View Post
Simple math tells us the smaller fleet does more PER MEMBER than the larger fleet.
Simple math tells us the smaller fleet spends more time in game PER MEMBER than the large fleet
Simple math tells us the smaller fleet is more potential profit than the large fleet

Simple logic says, design to the small fleet, and Cap fleet size at a much smaller number

The exploit, is the large fleet. Stop the exploit.

no matter how you spin it the fact is a small fleet does more per active member, meaning more potential for profit. The problem isn't the small fleet, its the fleets exploiting size to trivialize the efforts needed to get to the next tier.

5400 marks, 348K Dil for a T3 upgrade *(leaving out the consumables)
10 man fleet =540 marks per man, 34.8K dil per man
100 man fleet =54 marks per man 3.48 dil per man

Clearly the smaller fleet does more per member meaning more potential for profit, it takes them longer, they must be in the game more than the 100 man fleet, they're much more valuable than the 100 man fleet,

9 Fleet actions and 5 days of max Dil refine Vs 1 Fleet action, and one day of doff grind

You are valuing the wrong group.

Stop the exploit, stop the large fleet.
Amazing post and totally pure logic!

PWE/Cryptic are you reading this?

Here's the answer right in front of your eyes!

Just cap the large fleet size to a much lower level like 25 max!

Actually smaller fleets should be rewarded more than large fleets for the amount of time and money they are putting into their bases.

Large fleets are the exploit! Please change your design pattern and reward the hard work small fleets are doing. You will reap the benefits from them alot more than the large fleets that now have T5 and have stopped grinding on your "farm".

If you turn away from your "farming" style of game design and actually start developing new missions, story lines, and playable factions, you will get more in profits from all the ships, equipment, costumes, kits, etc. than you will ever get from the "farming" system.

Please listen to your customers!

PWE/Cryptic Stop the "farm", bring back the fun!

Zeus
Golly look what I got! Now I can collect game metrics properly and adjust the content correctly!

Delta Rising, The Best Expansion Ever and the Players Love it!
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,223
# 637
02-15-2013, 10:50 AM
Just as an aside does this forum have an ignore feature, or is it running on a design from 1996?
--------------------------------------

"We are smart." - Grebnedlog

Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 238
# 638
02-15-2013, 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
No that was the guy who I replied to being arrogant saying we are exploiting by playing mmo properly and growing our fleet, and saying his small useless fleet somehow is worht more to cryptic when my fleet obviously has the ability to generate more sales for cryptic due to us being able to purchase more fleet ships.
"How can we say nobody's perfect if there's no perfect to compare to? Perfection implies that there is a right and a wrong way to be. And what type of perfection is the best type...?"

Read that, then for god's sake, be quiet for a while...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 186
# 639
02-15-2013, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebumble View Post
A scale/sliding system won't work because there are those that would abuse it. All you have to do is keep your numbers low until the base is finished, rotating members in and out. Then when its done bring everyone into the fold.
Nothing in the game is stopping a large fleet from booting tons of folks out when they hit T5. We're hearing reports of folks getting demands to contribute set amounts or they can't have anything from large fleets. We've already seen a fleet get taken hostage. The current system is just as subject to abuse.

One, way which was suggested by someone (sorry I can't remember who) was to scale things with a twist. the less you have to put in, the longer it must go, the more, the faster.
So say a small fleet doing T3 only has to do 540 marks, and 34.8K dil instead of it taking 7 days, you double the time out, to 14 days. Now the large fleet, of 100, has to do 5400, and 348K. instead of seven it takes them 3. so more items shorter time, less work longer time. It puts a value on both ends, both sides sacrifice something to get another. Both large and small gain, and loose.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,799
# 640
02-15-2013, 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot
But I also think I understand enough of what may be going on on Cryptic's end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomace View Post
Care to enlighten us then?

You seem to have some insider information that we are not aware of?

To most on this thread it seems to be simply 1 of 2 reasons.

1. The Foundry authors "screamed" that they want it removed and Cryptic did (highly unlikely)

2. People are building bases faster than Cryptic wanted and they may loose money.

I go for number 2.
Really ?
I'm going with #1 .
Why ?
Because aside from Kirkfat saying something about "daddy" not blaming him for this debacle , I have yet to see a StarbaseUGC sig in this thread .
Could it be that they got what they wanted and are off celebrating victory ?
I mean a number of their posts indicate that they don't give a rodent's behind as to what happens outside the Foundry .

Oh , and all this is the result of Round 3 of "foundry vs grinders" not Round 1 as some claim .
1- clickys
2- afk-ers
3- fleetmarks
I am losing STO with each new system based update and with each removal and editing of content .
I don't know how to save her from her systems obsessed masters who seek to control and monetize me more and more .

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