Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 92
What is the point of an Engineer/Cruiser in an Elite STF when the other 4 members are Tactical Officers flying escorts and can 4 man the thing just as quick as they could with me helping?

I ran an Elite Hive Onslaught and watched the Tac officers in my group basically destroy the multiple Tactical Cubes without more than a couple of deaths during the entire battle.

Why are Engineer's and Sci so far away in DPS from the Tac/Escorts when this game is being pushed toward a "DPS IS KING" mentality?

It makes me think that my Cruiser/Engineer is useless. My damage output is no where near them, tanking is irrelevant and so are my heals at this point. I watched a Tac officer flying a Chimera take on a borg cube and not drop below 70% hull and destroyed it within a matter of seconds...wow ok sure I can take on the cube in my Fleet assault cruiser, but there is no way its going to take seconds or that my hull is not going to drop below 70%.

I honestly believe i need to re roll tactical because at this point it seems moot to continue with the under powered engineer/cruiser combo

Has anyone heard any plans to bring the Engineer/Science classes up to par with Tactical? Maybe give us some more utility or dmg boosting space skills? Because really..Miracle worker and its long cooldown are not that great, and neither is EPS power transfer or Engineering Fleet 2.

Thanks
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,058
# 2
02-11-2013, 02:30 AM
Totally agree. I have an engineer in a Fleet Galaxy Retrofit and yeah he is damn near indestructible but does little damage, barely being able to take out probes in KASE. In Elite STFs I fly around throwing heals but they are often irrelevant because the escorts can either heal themselves if they are suffering normal fire or get hit so hard there's nothing 5 cruisers could do to mitigate the 250K one shots (1 million HP one shots from the plasma ball).

Science I disagree somewhat, throwing grav wells around the spheres and dumping transphasic cluster torps whilst everyone else is doing the same is soooooo satisfying, viral matrixing the queen and subnucing her whilst the tacs hammer away means she is down in a few short minutes.

For fun we tried to run HSE as engineers in cruisers specced for healing. After an age we got rid of the tac cubes but we simply could not take out the mother ships, they were being healed faster than we could dish out the damage.

Engineering cruisers in the hands of engineers are very sadly irrelevant in high end gameplay in STO, and when you remember that the heros of the show, TOS and TNG, the Constitution and the Galaxy were basically engineering cruisers it makes it all the more sad that they are so utterly useless in the toughest challenges in the game.

A Tac in an Excelsior or Sovvy yes, but an engineer, forget it, they are just taking up space in the STF that could be used up by a good sci or another escort to make the whole thing go quicker.

Cryptic should address this asap IMO.

Good post.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 3
02-11-2013, 02:49 AM
Honestly I just put my Engie into an escort when I need to do PvE. Hive is sort of arguable but for anything else there's just really no purpose in any other ship type (although PvE Sci/Sci is kinda fun). And yes, this state of affairs is extremely dumb.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,556
# 4
02-11-2013, 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by natejam101 View Post
What is the point of an Engineer/Cruiser in an Elite STF when the other 4 members are Tactical Officers flying escorts and can 4 man the thing just as quick as they could with me helping?

I ran an Elite Hive Onslaught and watched the Tac officers in my group basically destroy the multiple Tactical Cubes without more than a couple of deaths during the entire battle.

Why are Engineer's and Sci so far away in DPS from the Tac/Escorts when this game is being pushed toward a "DPS IS KING" mentality?

It makes me think that my Cruiser/Engineer is useless. My damage output is no where near them, tanking is irrelevant and so are my heals at this point. I watched a Tac officer flying a Chimera take on a borg cube and not drop below 70% hull and destroyed it within a matter of seconds...wow ok sure I can take on the cube in my Fleet assault cruiser, but there is no way its going to take seconds or that my hull is not going to drop below 70%.

I honestly believe i need to re roll tactical because at this point it seems moot to continue with the under powered engineer/cruiser combo

Has anyone heard any plans to bring the Engineer/Science classes up to par with Tactical? Maybe give us some more utility or dmg boosting space skills? Because really..Miracle worker and its long cooldown are not that great, and neither is EPS power transfer or Engineering Fleet 2.

Thanks
the text in red basically dismantles your own rant...a dedicated tank (you as an engi in a cruiser) is more than capable to hold aggro and stay alive while the escorts take ZERO damage. 6 points in threat control and a half decend build guarantees that.
"Tank and spank" at its finest, it doesn't get more easy.

never ever run a healing support cruiser, allways go for dmg/tank combo...support cruisers are useless in PVE that is for sure.

also consider that "holding aggro" is not equal to doing alot of dmg.

Quote:
Totally agree. I have an engineer in a Fleet Galaxy Retrofit and yeah he is damn near indestructible but does little damage, barely being able to take out probes in KASE
basically what you have there is THE worst cruiser you can get. But an 8 beam 2xAux2batt build can make even this cruiser a capable tank, but only barely. 9 points in threat controle and an aggro console are basically obligatory.

Quote:
For fun we tried to run HSE as engineers in cruisers specced for healing. After an age we got rid of the tac cubes but we simply could not take out the mother ships, they were being healed faster than we could dish out the damage.
dumb idea to begin with anyway, result shouldn't have been a surprise. consider this, in any other MMO you do not go into a dungeon instance with only healers or only tanks, why would you do it in sto? makes entirely no sense.

Quote:
A Tac in an Excelsior or Sovvy yes, but an engineer, forget it, they are just taking up space in the STF that could be used up by a good sci or another escort to make the whole thing go quicker.
as i said before, a properly specced engi in a cruiser (by that i do not mean a support cruiser) can focus aggro on itself, while the rest of the team is undisturbed to take down targets...actually they can spare their heals on the tank.

the 250k torpedos are intentioned to be shot down anyway, so to get hit by those is a players own fault. Basically any ship does enough dmg to take them down in time.
and before the infamous "invis torpedo" is added to the discussion...that is hardly a measure, because it happens once every 5 runs at max.


the real problem is, that 90% of cruisers you see (and engi captains) do not fill their intentional role in the grp and that is tanking, period.
If you want to be a DD in space combat, fly an escort, or atleast one of the more hybrid cruisers (battle cruisers on the KDF side)
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 02-11-2013 at 03:08 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 173
# 5
02-11-2013, 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
dumb idea to begin with anyway, result shouldn't have been a surprise. consider this, in any other MMO you do not go into a dungeon instance with only healers or only tanks, why would you do it in sto? makes entirely no sense.
Going by that - why are four classical damage dealers sufficient to complete the same dungeon instance? He did use a Healer/Tank build and did not mention the use (or not using) of Threat Control.

Even with a Threat scaling Embassy console (another reason not to bother with a small fleet, regrettably) and the skill maxed out and abilities like Fire at Will it does pose difficult to keep Threat up enough against four dedicated damage dealers. You cannot cope against several Spike damage builds as You do not have much beyond FaW to spike Threat.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,442
# 6
02-11-2013, 03:25 AM
I have no trouble holding aggro in my assault cruiser. I have 6 points in threat and 2 threat consoles mk xi. Fire at will and beam overload stand me in good stead for grabbing and maintaining aggro.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 78
# 7
02-11-2013, 03:33 AM
just cause your an engie dosent mean you cant do dmg in a cruiser

i run my engie in a oddy, i use a aux 2 bat build using CRF and DEM with 4x single cannons 4x turrets, All disruptors with tet glider (2 piece omega space set bonus)

not is he just indistructable and deals really good dps in PvE it also performs very well in
PvP.

if you do decided to run something like that using DEM id go with CRTHx3, if your not using DEM use ACCx3... i carry both just in case i want to put an etxra EMPTS where my DEM is.. i just switch out my cannons and all is well

you can pretty much run the same set up on any cruiser.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 173
# 8
02-11-2013, 03:43 AM
Which would turn the tank into a damage dealer - but not make him a better tank.

As to tc10b - we tried using several builds in our fleet and were unable to keep up the threat long enough against three damage dealers dedicated to do just that (and a science ship trying heals and crowd control abilities - which was rarely if ever a threat but a good addition).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,556
# 9
02-11-2013, 04:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deianirrah View Post
Going by that - why are four classical damage dealers sufficient to complete the same dungeon instance? He did use a Healer/Tank build and did not mention the use (or not using) of Threat Control.

Even with a Threat scaling Embassy console (another reason not to bother with a small fleet, regrettably) and the skill maxed out and abilities like Fire at Will it does pose difficult to keep Threat up enough against four dedicated damage dealers. You cannot cope against several Spike damage builds as You do not have much beyond FaW to spike Threat.
good point, but then you have to ask also why basically every other MMO is centered around DD classes. STO is no different.
in another paragraph of my post i pointed out that playing a cruiser in PVE forces you in a specific role, as does playing a heavy armor/shield class forces you into the role of a tank. The same principle applies for STO.
Even the class description says so on the very first page when creating a character. As in each and every other MMO.
Also a healer/tank build is not the same as a DD/tank build, as i see it. a dd/tank runs max weapon power with focus on self healing and damage mitigation. Probably we mean the same, just use different expressions.

why it should pose difficult to keep threat as you describe it, is really beyond my experiance because frankly i doubt your statement is right. atleast it never happened to me, or people i know to be good tanks.
A spike dmg build may draw aggro for a short period of time, but in general they tend to run lower overall DPS, which makes regaining aggro easy.

i also wanted to add, that STO does not force you to maintain this role: it actually supports the notion to switch ship according to the content you are about to play. For instance, if you are going to do dailys alone, you should take an escort. It's the fastest way to do them.
If your grp is short of a tank, you switch into your def cruiser and so on.
Only the most narrow minded players use one ship for everything and are bound to fail ofcourse...or come to the forums and rant about how weak cruisers are compared to escorts. Well guess what, they are when it comes to dealing dmg and that is by design.
The only beef i have with cruiser design is the low turnrate and inertia...makes flying them a pure annoyance and bringing the ship about a life long journey. (bought myself an oddy pack for that reason to fly a tac oddy with chevron sep, turns well now and still able to tank about anything)

I see the ships you use in STO as the gear you usually use in other MMOs. Escorts are the offensive gear while cruisers are def gear. By switching ship, you choose your role in the grp.
You don't expect to be a DD when wearing shield and def gear in Lotro/wow/any other mmo...same goes for STO

the only thing wrong, and thats basically why this thread actaully exists, is the fact that people outgear the stf content already by far, so a tank is not needed...even a tactical approach is not needed. with fleet shield 20% dmg reduction shields mk xii weapons and enemys at lvl 50 anything can tank a spehere or a cube for long enough to take it down. Make them lvl 52 and you will see how desperately needed a resiliant tank is or a mass CC science vessel that renders the hardest hitters harmless. anything but into the hive space elite (lvl 52 enemys) and no win scenario is a joke in terms of difficulty...and believe it or not, there you need dedicated tanks/cc/heal that assist escorts to keep the fire off of them and the transporter.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 02-11-2013 at 04:31 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,690
# 10
02-11-2013, 04:30 AM
It is possible to create a good hybrid cruiser with an engineer at the helm that does some serious damage. My eng cruiser (build here) can do some major damage and tank 3 semi-decent pvp escorts before being brought down by their 3 consecutive alphas AND on top of that I have enough shared heals to keep someone else alive if need be.

Using that build and only 3 points in TC I can keep aggro off even the highest DPS scorts I know and in the event I can't I think "Yay an escort I don't have to tank for" park up next to them, dish out my damage and keep them as healthy as I can.
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