Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 11
02-17-2013, 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfexile1 View Post
That's not a very nice way to think about it.

First off, We already have a scatter volley for the beams, It's called fire at will.

Second, Hes not asking to make every beam BoFF for cannons, Hes making a logical suggestion about how cannons should be able to target subsystems too.
The problem with that is that cannons have the bonus that they all are boosted by a single boff ability. Fire at will nor beam overload have that feature (fire at will just fires normal damage beams at more targets more times but its not buffed damage).

Subsystem should remain beam-only. If anything, the only change that ability needs is that it should have MORE places to target and it should be DIRECTIONAL.

Subsystem target:

Warp core (all power levels drop)

Bridge: boff ability timer increase or stun or reset.. a poor man's subnuke.

EPS relays: ship is unable to balance shields, transfer power or receive power bonuses from abilities like emg power or battery based abilities.

Sensors: Screen becomes full of static, ship unable to target.

Directional: By this I mean that some subsystems should only be able to be hit when the shot comes from a certain direction. For example, hitting the engines from the front is just stupid.

To make it fun and interactive, the subsystem attack should highlight with swirly-target-circles (as it used to long ago) where the subsystem is located on the hull and only a shot that comes from the side of the ship that system is in will hit it. Aka, engines from rear, EPS relays from the right side of the ship... etc.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,491
# 12
02-17-2013, 06:55 PM
"Target their Soup Replicators," the Captain orders.

"Aye-aye, sir," the Tactical/Operations Officer replies.

Buttons pushed. Weapons fires. Beams, cannons, torps, pretty much anything but mines. Doesn't matter if it's a shuttle or a battleship - the scenario above is played out the same.

It's a called shot. It should have reduced accuracy (for being a called shot) and have the chance to take out the particular subsystem (for being a called shot). No drain - just a chance to offline the subsystem for a period longer than some random phaser proc...offset of course by the ridiculous stacking of five Human BOFFs doing their subsystem repair thing.

Would this mean removing it from Science Vessels and it just being the Tac ability? Pretty much...besides, it makes no sense that Science Vessels have it as an innate ship ability anyway. Subsystem Targeting is not some Sci voodoo magic - it's just a weapon attack - just a Tac thing...
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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 13
02-17-2013, 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
"Target their Soup Replicators," the Captain orders.

"Aye-aye, sir," the Tactical/Operations Officer replies.

Buttons pushed. Weapons fires. Beams, cannons, torps, pretty much anything but mines. Doesn't matter if it's a shuttle or a battleship - the scenario above is played out the same.

It's a called shot. It should have reduced accuracy (for being a called shot) and have the chance to take out the particular subsystem (for being a called shot). No drain - just a chance to offline the subsystem for a period longer than some random phaser proc...offset of course by the ridiculous stacking of five Human BOFFs doing their subsystem repair thing.

Would this mean removing it from Science Vessels and it just being the Tac ability? Pretty much...besides, it makes no sense that Science Vessels have it as an innate ship ability anyway. Subsystem Targeting is not some Sci voodoo magic - it's just a weapon attack - just a Tac thing...
Considering how badly TS:X needs a revamp, I don't see a problem with doing it wholesale and giving innate targeting to all ships, while giving Sci's something new (some sort of innate electronic warfare perhaps?).
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 14
# 14
02-17-2013, 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191
Considering how badly TS:X needs a revamp, I don't see a problem with doing it wholesale and giving innate targeting to all ships, while giving Sci's something new (some sort of innate electronic warfare perhaps?).
This does sounds intriguing, but Electronic Warfare doesn't seem very, "sciencey" to me. The stealth stuff for ground is Tac-only, for example.

Perhaps a more, on-ship focus, like, a sizable boost (50, 75, or maybe more) to one science skill, like graviton, particle, flow capacitors, etc. (Sure, 50, 75, or more sounds like alot, but considering how weak science offence and strong the resists are atm, its not really that game-shattering.)
This would only allow one kind at a time, changeable after a cooldown (maybe a few minutes,) and would allow a science ship some more power in its preferred science power tactic.

"Recalibrate the Main Deflector to boost Tachyon Particle output!" (Flow Capacitors)
Now that sounds alot more sciencey.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 15
02-17-2013, 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xionstryke View Post
this Does Sounds Intriguing, But Electronic Warfare Doesn't Seem Very, "sciencey" To Me. The Stealth Stuff For Ground Is Tac-only, For Example.

Perhaps A More, On-ship Focus, Like, A Sizable Boost (50, 75, Or Maybe More) To One Science Skill, Like Graviton, Particle, Flow Capacitors, Etc. (sure, 50, 75, Or More Sounds Like Alot, But Considering How Weak Science Offence And Strong The Resists Are Atm, Its Not Really That Game-shattering.)
This Would Only Allow One Kind At A Time, Changeable After A Cooldown (maybe A Few Minutes,) And Would Allow A Science Ship Some More Power In Its Preferred Science Power Tactic.

"recalibrate The Main Deflector To Boost Tachyon Particle Output!" (flow Capacitors)
Now That Sounds Alot More Sciencey.
^ I Like This.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 16
02-17-2013, 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
^ I Like This.
How did his post go from normal case to Gratuitous Abuse of Capitals Case?

Subtargeting being the domain of science ships in particular makes sense to me. The intent of targeting their subsystems is not to cause damage, it is to debuff and disable them. Which is a science thing. Science ships are the ones that would have the sensors and equipment to not only detect the enemy ship's innards, but also tune their weapons in the particular way needed to damage the innards while the shields are still up.

The basic problem with science ships is that their ability to contribute is severely hampered by the hilariously bad efficiency and performance of most science abilities, which in turn leads to the conflicting need to have high power in both Guns (since your sci doesn't do meaningful damage) and Aux (for the few sci abilities that are worth it), as well as underscoring the fact that Sensor Analysis takes way too long to be a factor in anything except boss fights.

Giving science ships free subtargeting (which is level 1 and untrained, which means they have a horrendous cooldown, for anybody that has not flown them) is a minor consolation prize next to all the areas they fail miserably at. What they really need is for science abilities in general to have faster cooldowns and bigger impacts. Everything else is just addressing the aesthetics of a burning house instead of putting out the fire.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 278
# 17
02-18-2013, 05:48 AM
I dunno about swapping subsystem targeting into a science ability, but I could see a separation being made:

Tactical Ability: Target Subsystems
Charges your next energy weapon attack, reducing damage but adding a random chance to disable a subsystem. The subsystems targeted are based on the enemy's facing arc, with the actual system being disabled randomly chosen among those available.

For example, shots from an enemy's rear that disable a subsystem will have a high chance of that system being their engines, with a lower chance of it being shields or auxiliary. Shots to the side of a ship with beam arrays will have a chance to disable weapons, shields or auxiliary, shots to the front can only threaten shields or weapons.

Science Ability: Drain [Subsystem] Power
Innate science ship abilities (rank I) and available for science bridge officers between ranks I and III. These abilities charge your next beam weapon attack to drain power from one of the ship's four subsystems (depending which ability you trigger).

The beam attack has reduced damage, and trades all procs for [Acc] modifiers, as the ability completely changes the weapon's power output (special beam animation). The ability fires a volley of prolonged beam shots for a total of 10 seconds, with one shot per beam per second. Each hit does reduced damage (40% of normal DPS for rank I, 50% for rank II, 60% for rank III) but also drains some amount of its base DPS as power from the targeted system (8% for rank I, 10% for rank II, 12% for rank III).

For example, firing a Mk XII beam array at rank II of the ability would drain 1.76 power per hit, or 17.6 power over the ability's duration; if fired as a broadside of six beams that would be a total of 105.6 power drained from the targeted system. This would likely be less as the enemy won't just sit around, and ought to have power insulators helping out, though this is also before applying any relevant skills to the ability. If the system is reduced to zero power it goes down, and any additional hits keep it down.

This seems much more science-y to me than somehow innately knowing how to plant accurate shots on a target, and would more reliably benefit science ships. Numbers are all as examples, but the idea here is that the science ship converts their beam banks and arrays into a form targeted feedback pulse intended to disrupt specific power systems.
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 14
# 18
02-18-2013, 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by haravikk View Post
snip
While the buff to Sci innate SS:T sounds nice, I disagree with adding special SS:T skills into the Sci trees.
The core Science BOff powers desperately need fixing, not space-filling with tactical skill ripoffs. Energy Syphon and Tyken's Rift already exist to for the sci-power draining role.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 278
# 19
02-19-2013, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xionstryke View Post
While the buff to Sci innate SS:T sounds nice, I disagree with adding special SS:T skills into the Sci trees.
The core Science BOff powers desperately need fixing, not space-filling with tactical skill ripoffs. Energy Syphon and Tyken's Rift already exist to for the sci-power draining role.
Oh I agree that core abilities need fixing too, but this is an alternative to simply moving sub-system targeting into science abilities.

The point is that the abilities innate to science ships really should be something that requires science skills to get the most out of, while leaving something for the tactical bridge officers to add to beams.


You're right that maybe a power drain isn't the right way to go about it, though they would be drains focused on single systems, and based on your weapons so it's not quite the same mechanic.


An alternative might be to still leave tactical officers with the semi-random sub-system targeting I mentioned above, but give science officers more reliable, unique abilities in their tree, and as part of the innate science ship bonuses.

For example:
Overwhelm Targeting Array:
Your next beam weapon attack carries a disruptive charge of ionised particles that confound a target's sensors. Applies a -20%, -30% or -40% accuracy penalty to the target for 5 seconds (duration and penalty affected by skills).

Match Shield Frequency:
Your next beam weapon attack uses feedback to attempt to match your target's shield frequency. Inflicts a stackable +0.5%, +0.75% or +1% additional shield bleed-through to the target per-hit for 10 seconds (penalty and duration affected by skills). I can't remember how many "pulses" beam arrays fire, so the numbers may be too low, but it would aim to potentially double a target's shield bleed-through against all damage they receive, not just from you (so it differs from Directed Energy Modulation.

Navigational Interference
Your next beam weapon attack target's a ship's navigational deflector systems and impulse engines. Has a 25% chance of disabling the target's engines, a 25% chance of putting all deflector abilities into a 30 second cool-down, and a 50% chance of reducing turn-rate to zero while locking the target's speed.

Disrupt Secondary Systems
Your next beam weapon attack carries interference designed to disrupt or shut-down environmental and artificial gravity systems. Reduces crew recovery rates and increases all bridge officer cool-down times.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 374
# 20
02-19-2013, 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfexile1 View Post
That's not a very nice way to think about it.

First off, We already have a scatter volley for the beams, It's called fire at will.

Second, Hes not asking to make every beam BoFF for cannons, Hes making a logical suggestion about how cannons should be able to target subsystems too.
If we're gonna get down to the technical nitty-gritty, cannons are probably nowhere near as precise as directed beams....so it would make more sense for them to be general steamroller bombardment weapons than precise, tactile disablers.
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