Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,704
# 11
02-18-2013, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by martok16 View Post
place an object, play map, look at it, too far?, too close?, return to editor, move the object, play map again, check object, and repeat til satisfied of the placement of each and every object placed.
That is exactly the process most of us use.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 129
# 12
02-18-2013, 01:54 PM
Quote:
How do people make great missions with the default assets?
Painfully.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 13
02-18-2013, 01:59 PM
The key to making good content with these tools is this:

It's all about the story. If you have a good story idea, you craft it into a coherent plot, and then you express that plot in a way that makes the player feel like he's involved, the rest is just item placement.

Unless you're trying to replicate odd functionality using our limited tools, of course; that's where a completely different kind of artistry comes into play. That takes a metric crapload of practice; there's no way around it.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,129
# 14
02-18-2013, 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
Yep. Making content with this tool takes a tremendous amount of time. And here's the kicker; this is just a "hardened" version of Cryptic's own tools. It's not all that much different from what they use internally; they can just edit some things directly that we have to do through a GUI. Or that's my understanding, anyway; I'd love to hear a dev confirm/deny that.

I spent over 40 hours on Franklin Drake Must Die before I considered it "done" enough for me to proceed with the next installment in the story. It's barely long enough for the old Daily standards.
I don't even want to think about how many hours I've spent on building Beta Rana station....

Seriously martok, if you think placing a few props is time consuming, try building the entire set from scratch.... Oy... now THAT is tedious.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,253
# 15
02-18-2013, 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by martok16 View Post
I guess the only missions that can be created are simple space/ground combat with dialog stories, using the default maps, how other people have done stuff like creating a green looking holodeck with just a console in the middle, and when activated, the console fades out, and all the objects fade in without waiting to load maps, these people must have access to assets that other people don't.

I've watched the foundry tutorials on the sto wiki, but they relate to foundry v0.5, but the current version is 0.8, so, which means assets that were available then, are not available now.

Soo, basically, using the provided maps, and default assets, I've come to the conclusion that the only missions that can be made are those of space/ground combat with a storyline, such as the one I made called "Stop Klingon Invasion", it has a basic storyline, but lots of space and ground combat, and that's about all that can be made using what's available.

I hear about all these "work-a-rounds" but no-one wants to give it up an how they do it.

I've looked everywhere on the net and nothing.


What's needed is to actually see the map in a 3D virtual world and using mouse drag and drop, just place, size, and rotate the objects so that they can be seen exactly as they are placed, instead if just guessing how far up/down, left/right, and playing the map each time an object is moved or rotated. EG, one of the Klingon table consoles show the icon on the map with an arrow, supposedly, that arrow represents looking forward, but in fact, for the console, it's pointing to the back of the console.

By using a Virtual world system much as you would see ESD, or a ground mission, then dragging and dropping and object, then allows one to see exactly where it's located and not guess if it's in a wall or if the object is the right way round or not.

Imagine this, loading up the ESD map, enter the map as you would normally, but ESD would be completely empty of npc's, a sidebar would show selections in categories of what object or npc you want to place, then just drag it from the bar to the 3D world, then it can be moved on it's x,y,z axis, and rotated, then you would see precisely where it would be and what it would look like, then when satisfied of all object/npc placement, one can return to the story creation.

To get an idea of what I mean, have a look at the user created 3D world of "Secondlife", objects can be moved around by just grabbing the object(s) and dragging them around the virtual world.
These are two separate ideas - which one is your main point?

For the first idea, it's all a clever process of setting objects to become non-visible when a mission objective or object is completed. I suggest playing around with the options of "Visible" and "Nonvisible" in a sandbox map, and getting familiar with how it works.

For the second idea, good luck trying to push that. The Devs, when it comes to the Foundry, don't really change much other than adding new assets or fixing editor glitches. I proposed an idea way back in this forum, to have grouping and layering of objects within the Foundry editor - as with most suggestions, it was probably ignored. Which is a shame, it is a great idea.

Not to pop your bubble, but you will find a lot of great ideas will go unnoticed or ignored by the game's developers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman
Seriously martok, if you think placing a few props is time consuming, try building the entire set from scratch.... Oy... now THAT is tedious.
Oh boy! You should have seen me work on the Enterprise-D interiors in one of my Alpha missions. Took me two months to get everything to look right. TWO MONTHS! ON ONE MAP!

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Last edited by stardestroyer001; 02-18-2013 at 05:24 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,129
# 16
02-18-2013, 07:40 PM
Yeah, a lot of good ideas get looked at and the devs go "I can't do that", and that's that.
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 43
# 17
02-19-2013, 06:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Yeah, a lot of good ideas get looked at and the devs go "I can't do that", and that's that.
To sway a little off topic, but indirectly related to the subject. I run a home server using software based on an opensource 3D virtual world system (called "opensim"), which in turn is connected to a central system, to which other people running the same software connects each other to it, and using a client (similar to STO's game client), users are able to connect to those servers.

The "toon" (as people put it), and the visual representation is much like STO's world, but with a difference, the initial world starts as a square piece of land 256x256m, the land can be terraformed, and the content, such as buildings, vehicles, and yes, space ships, are all user created "in-world" using basic prims, such as cubes, spheres, etc etc, which can also be manipulated (edited), moved, combined, and textured to take on the desired form, scripts can be added to these objects to perform various functions, such as opening a door (sliding or swing), flying, forward and backward motion, and using a physics engine, objects, npc's and user characters can interact with each other, now, as you know nothing is perfect and neither is the software I run, but, the devs listen, and if a lot of people see a problem and/or sees an area of improvement, the devs do listen and that why I can safely say "if the "opensim" devs can do it, then Cryptic devs can at least try.

Yes, someone has actually created (on one of these "opensim" servers), an entire Star Trek based theme, including the academy, ESD, and the Starship Enterprise NCC-1701-A, and it flies too, flight is limited to the abilities of the software, but that's changing, and also the Star Trek TOS clothing for the toons is all user created too.

Cryptic has much to learn from software like that, I believe it would make creating foundry missions a lot easier.

I'm not saying to run servers at home, but it can all still be done on the STO servers, but change the editor a little to use a 3D environment, to create/edit the maps, then exit the map when satisfied of all placement, and carry on with the story line.

I'm also not saying to manually create the objects from scratch, lol, just enter the 3D editor, drag and drop assets from the asset repository to the ground, then just move and rotate the object to the position required, and repeat for other objects, then,,,, one can enter a 2D representation, such as what is used now, to select each object and edit it's properties, for triggers, animations, etc etc, but for actually building the map, a 3D representation would be a darn sight easier.

Last edited by martok16; 02-19-2013 at 06:14 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 18
02-19-2013, 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Yeah, a lot of good ideas get looked at and the devs go "I can't do that", and that's that.
On the other hand, a lot of players have ideas for foundry missions and when they see the foundry they go "Yeah, I can't do that with this foundry version".

Also do you guys really believe that the devs have to build maps in a 2d-minimap?? That would be ridiculous. I bet devs can navigate in the 3d world and place assets, so they instantly see, how it looks. If the foundry could do this too, I bet custom maps would increase in awesomeness by the factor of 10 or 100.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,253
# 19
02-19-2013, 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by allocater View Post
On the other hand, a lot of players have ideas for foundry missions and when they see the foundry they go "Yeah, I can't do that with this foundry version".

Also do you guys really believe that the devs have to build maps in a 2d-minimap?? That would be ridiculous. I bet devs can navigate in the 3d world and place assets, so they instantly see, how it looks. If the foundry could do this too, I bet custom maps would increase in awesomeness by the factor of 10 or 100.
Two issues with this:

1) I have seen someone say that Cryptic uses almost the same Foundry editor as we do, it's just that they enter in coordinates directly instead of using a user interface as simple as ours.

2) Even if Cryptic used such a 3-d system, trust me when I say it would be a pain in the neck to use on any regular home computer. I used to mod Battlefront II, and it took a good three minutes to load a complicated map. So try loading ten maps... You'd be waiting more than anything.

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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 20
02-19-2013, 06:45 AM
But every level designer in every game spends his time in a 3d world and moves around 3d assets until he likes how it looks. I mean that is the job description of a level designer. No way STO is the only game that does it differently. We need to get the guy who designed New Romulus to confirm it.

Also this is not rocket science, every normal computer can do this. I did it in Age of Empires 10 years ago.
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