Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,089
# 21
02-19-2013, 06:45 AM
@ martok: the closest we could get is the ability to move objects while in preview mode. Which would be REALLY nice.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,263
# 22
02-19-2013, 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by allocater View Post
But every level designer in every game spends his time in a 3d world and moves around 3d assets until he likes how it looks. I mean that is the job description of a level designer. No way STO is the only game that does it differently. We need to get the guy who designed New Romulus to confirm it.

Also this is not rocket science, every normal computer can do this. I did it in Age of Empires 10 years ago.
You are making a ton of assumptions.

I just stated that someone (was it a forum mod, dev, or Branflakes, I can't remember) stated that Cryptic uses the same map editor that we do, except the UI doesn't look as nice. Why are you disputing fact?

And I never said you computer couldn't do it. I said it would take an inordinately long amount of time to load each map. Then, once you make changes (this is where my knowledge is vague), I'm guessing when you publish the mission, it would take some time for the mission to complete munging.

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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 43
# 23
02-19-2013, 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by allocater View Post
But every level designer in every game spends his time in a 3d world and moves around 3d assets until he likes how it looks. I mean that is the job description of a level designer. No way STO is the only game that does it differently. We need to get the guy who designed New Romulus to confirm it.

Also this is not rocket science, every normal computer can do this. I did it in Age of Empires 10 years ago.
Precisely, more modern computers, not just high-end gaming systems, have excellent GFX systems, and are more than capable of handling 3D environments, mine, is just a store bought HP with a quad core APU (not to be confused with a CPU), with inbuilt 1GB GFX, on the processor, and 8GB RAM, and along with Direct-X, it can handle even the most GFX intensive 3D environment, sooo, yes, Cryptic would be wise to use a 3D drag and drop editor in preview mode, and thinking about that,,,, how many people would sign up to STO, if that was made possible?, IMO plenty. A 3D editor would make it a lot more simpler for players to create foundry missions, and would open the door to many possibilities, and Cryptic would also get a bigger user base too.

Last night a friend of mine came over, (a real star trek boffin, he's even gone as far to learn to speak, read and write Klingon, and his house is all voice controlled with functioning wall consoles everywhere, but current technology can only do so much), I showed him STO, and the foundry editor, he was over the moon when he saw the STO world, but when he saw the foundry editor, and how missions were created, that put him off, to quote his words:-

"The editor is to simple, and far too time consuming, everyone I know at my work (as a games designer) uses 3D editing. STO in itself is great, but a lot has to be said about the mission editor, if Cryptic want people to create good, engrossing missions, then they need to incorporate a 3D editing environment".

And those were exactly his words.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 129
# 24
02-19-2013, 12:30 PM
Quote:
I just stated that someone (was it a forum mod, dev, or Branflakes, I can't remember) stated that Cryptic uses the same map editor that we do, except the UI doesn't look as nice. Why are you disputing fact?
This is false. The devs use 3D editor, however the resource requirements are tremendous and the reliability is not so good.

Quote:
Precisely, more modern computers, not just high-end gaming systems, have excellent GFX systems, and are more than capable of handling 3D environments
My ISA bus 512kb Trident card was more than capable to handle 3D environments. I have fond memories playing Alone In the Dark and Doom with it. That is not the question. The question is performance and minimum system specs. If you needed a dual 680 with 16 gigs of RAM to run the editor with good speed then the 3D thing just doesn't worth it.

Quote:
how many people would sign up to STO, if that was made possible?, IMO plenty
IMO none.

Quote:
would open the door to many possibilities
Such as?

Quote:
and Cryptic would also get a bigger user base too.
Why exactly?


Quote:
"The editor is to simple, and far too time consuming,
Sorry, there is no instant "5 stars all the way mission!" button. I think the editor is cumbersome.

Quote:
everyone I know at my work (as a games designer) uses 3D editing
I would hate to code C++ or make background music in 3D.

Quote:
if Cryptic want people to create good, engrossing missions, then they need to incorporate a 3D editing environment".
Good and creative designers don't need 3D editor. Actually good and creative designers can perfectly get around using notepad. I know I can.

Last edited by pendra3780; 02-19-2013 at 01:19 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 43
# 25
02-19-2013, 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendra3780 View Post
Good and creative designers don't need 3D editor. Actually good and creative designers can perfectly get around using notepad. I know I can.
So you're saying you can create games such as WoW, Doom 3D, Need for Speed etc etc , with just notepad? No disrespect, but, whatever pills you're taking, I'd like some lol.

That's why developers/designers use programs like Wings 3D, Blender, and other 3D object creation tools, if STO was written using notepad, I hate to think what it would look like, perhaps an ancient DOS text based game lol.

Last edited by martok16; 02-19-2013 at 12:45 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,089
# 26
02-19-2013, 12:45 PM
Hehe... have you ever done any Space Empires 5 mods? Most of it IS done with notepad.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 129
# 27
02-19-2013, 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by martok16 View Post
So you're saying you can create games such as WoW, Doom 3D, Need for Speed etc etc , with just notepad? No disrespect, but, whatever pills you're taking, I'd like some lol.
You know that everything boils down to raw data, code and scripts?

Coding? Notepad, with language related extension of course.

A 3D mesh is nothing more than a big file with coordinates and texture data. Open for edit, modify some numbers and you have a different model. I do agree that it is generally easier to create 3D models in a 3D editor, but if you want to make something precise or special, you will need to get down to the source.
A shaders are good old scripts, too. Open for edit, change the script and you have a new visual effect.

I made procedurally generated maps for HL1 and HL2 using Pascal, Delphi and Notepad.

I actually made script generated custom interior creator for this very game using Delphi and mission extracts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz5F1zNr7Z8

As a little fun side project, I added an extension that could populate an area with random junk.

BTW this is a foundry mission. If only they allowed me to simply change the values and upload it to the server. That would cut down the time needed for mission editing CONSIDERABLY!!!!

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Component 13
{
VisibleName "Crate - Civilian S 01 #1"
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Position 1096.319824, 0.164063, 992.171387
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MapType 4
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Component 15
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VisibleName "Special Project Division Researcher #1"
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Last edited by pendra3780; 02-19-2013 at 01:02 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 129
# 28
02-19-2013, 01:24 PM
Actually, Doom was a very bad example. It is only pseudo 3D. The whole thing is made in 2D, including the maps. The third D is added through applying an elevation value to the 2D block.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,659
# 29
02-20-2013, 07:51 AM
When I said this is a "hardened" version of the same tools the Devs use, keep in mind:

1) That "hardening" includes removing the ability to import things created in other tools. They do a lot of their work in other tools and import it.

2) I'm working on applying logic to things I vaguely remember being said over a long period of time in many places. It's possible that things were poorly expressed, poorly transcribed, poorly remembered, or that there's a flaw in the logic chain. I have no inside information that's not gleaned from public sources, so take it with a grain of salt.

Remember, I don't work for Cryptic or PWE, I'm just another forum user who has been given some "janitor" powers to keep the place clean. If anything, I have less inside view these days than in the past, since Cryptic pulled out of IRC and doesn't do as many "stream of consciousness" talks as they did early on.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online Forums. My views do not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment.
If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a 'forums and website' support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
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Last edited by syberghost; 02-20-2013 at 08:38 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,089
# 30
02-20-2013, 08:11 AM
You were pretty much correct though. Dev tools can add in new assets and have access to all the quest functions, but that's the only way they're better.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
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