Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,384
# 1 Virusdancer had a great idea!
02-18-2013, 02:12 PM
And that idea was making some Boff skills into ship abilities. Well of course I think this is a great idea because I think all Captain Abilities need to become ship abilities. So from my point of view why not consider some Boff skills as well?

Sadly, there was resistance to the Enlightenment.

Something to keep in mind is how badly Captain Abilities impair game balance. If you force the game to balance across the full range of those abilities you will find that you can't. If you turn down the damage of a Sci or Eng ability to be reasonable when APA is applied, well it will be wimpy without it.

The logic of "universal design modules" or whatever joke it was to support this "any captain ability in any ship" concept is really just that. A joke. No hard feelings. If it was serious, cruisers would no longer suffer from hull induced defense deficits and crappy turn rates. Cause we can mount the full array of power supplys and healing magic and sub nucs and dampening fields in an escort hull amirite? No problem there! Yippee!

So. It really is time to make things hull specific. Let players spend skill points as they want. Make CAPTAIN skill points affect those hull specific abilites. So for instance a Captain skilled in sub nuc for PVP can hop in an escort for some PVE and get some good numbers by using Alpha. But he's not skilled in it so he won't get the FULL benefit, but still it is something.

So maybe we aren't at that point yet of deciding WHAT skills or abilites. Maybe we're still at the point of deciding if it should be done at all.

I think it should be done to promote balance in gameplay, make it easier for the devs to balance new hybrid ship designs, and allow for greater flexiblity and customization for players.

So let's not discuss specific skills unless it is to illustrate a point. Lets focus on what this change could bring to STO. Would it promote balance or hinder it? Would it promote variety or hinder it? Would it make moving foward with new abilities/ships easier, or would it make it more difficult?

AGAIN....keep in mind....currently all ships are under the effect of needing to be balanced in the prescence of ALL captain abilities. In effect, what this means is Sci ships and Eng ships will NEVER get a damage ability that is meaningful for thier class captains, as a Tac captain could use that same ability to basically wreck **** in amazing ways. So you need to know this. And thats just the most obvious example.

Cheers!!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,702
# 2
02-19-2013, 01:22 AM
All i can see here is "nerf tacs". I ve been waiting for a buff to beams and eng cpt abilities for ages. It ain't happening. So yes nerf tacs.

Tric mines, CPB, FBP, ....all had problems when combined with Tac cpt powers. But remained in the harmless to useless range when combined with SS, or NE, or ... add in proc based healing that has long turned escorts to the euqals of cruisers in terms of tanking.....
sooooo nerf em Tacs, seems easier then to redesign the whole meta game

All cannon eng/scorts, should roughly be as viable as sci/scorts.
All beam eng/sci should roughly be as viable as tac/sci.

at the moment tac does brilliantly in anything but a carrier....the problem is with tac buffs and their interaction with high level sci powers (and even DEM for that matter). NE, EPS, ENg Fleet in comparison add very little oooomph to AUx2Sif 3 or ES3. Tac get similar bonuses by using doffs.

Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 02-19-2013 at 01:26 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 3
02-19-2013, 01:53 AM
Actually I would prefer if they removed the classes from the game. It's a relic from the past. I would just let the player to pick 1 out of 3 choices every 10 levels...

Would need to shuffle them a little to have comparable effects on each tier, but it would solve a lot of trouble. No, nerf tac, buff eng threads for example. Instead we would get nerf this ability and boost this, which is likely to happen.

I'm generally against putting tac buffs on escorts only and such, because it robs the player of choices and experimenting with various hybrids.

However, I think team skills should be ship default abilities and there can be more of them.

tactical team
security team
engineering team
damage control team
medical team
science team
whatever team
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,783
# 4
02-19-2013, 04:57 AM
I can see the argument... and I wish Cryptic had had it with themselves 5 years ago...

At this point I don't see how they remove the only thing that makes one captain type different from the next...

I do however see the merit in the idea.....

I would think perhaps THIS would be a good solution...

Why not add 1-2 NEW skills to the ships....

And then Change the Captain abilities a bit.

It would work like this (and yes people will see this as a nerf... but I think it would in fact open new builds and make the ships more balanced)

Tactical
- Attack Pattern Alpha; Half its uptime, half its dmg numbers... remove its defense abilities and half its cool down time.
- Go Down Fighting; Stays as it is
- Fire on my mark; Reduce its cool down by half... reduce its effect to around 50% of current... and change its effect time to 10s.... and REMOVE the ability for tac team to remove it at all.

Science
- Sub Nuke - Limit the number of buffs it strips (I know major nerf stay with me a sec)... Limit number of buffs stripped to 5... HOWEVER IF the target has less then 5 buffs up... have sub nuke apply a vulnerability debuff of say 5% per level... so if you target has NO buffs at all.... you would apply a 25% vulnerability debuff on that target instead. If they had 1 buff the debuff would be 20% and the buff would be stripped. Now this is the part some would love and some would hate.... take the cool down and drop it to around 1min. The change would make it a more active ability... It would also make this ability useful in PvE.
One thing I would like... teams would still want to role 2 sci for the new added debuffs + a full strip if they need by using 2... however they would be up more and I think it would be a good thing for match times.
- Sensor Scan - Likely Fine just the way it is
- Damp Field - What if Damp Field changed depending what type of ship you flew. So on an escort it would be an AOE dmg increase for friendlies... on a Cruiser it could be an AOE Hull resist / Small regen field.... on a Sci ship it could be a AOE debuff field, reducing defense numbers on enemies in the field. (I see sci ships as the debuff class not the main healer)

Engi
- EPS Transfer - I can't think of to many changes here... however I think we can all agree that EPS mostly blows. (mostly because systems are already very juiced)... However what if we just changed the Numbers on it a bit... right now it gives you what around 30-35 power on every system... what if it did something more like 50 15 15 15 on an escort... 15 50 15 15 on a cruiser... and 15 15 15 50 on a Sci ship... this would give engi captains a nice boost in which ever ship they are flying.
- Nadion - This skill honestly really Pis** me off... it used to be the one nice dmg boost engi captains had... what annoys me is that Cryptic seems intent on giving this skill to everyone through Cutting beams and doffs. Which is really bogus.
SO I would suggest they just completely revamp this skill. Being that this is intended to be the engi dmg buff... why not just make it that.... Leave the resistance to drain... and add a 10% dmg boost... it would be a small buff... but at least engi escort wouldn't seem so gimpy... that in combo with perhaps 1-2 new escort only skills could perhaps make it a viable option again.
- M Worker. Not much to say on this one... its fine as it is... and I don't think it effects balance either way... its no stronger or weaker then the other captains third skills.

Possible New Skills on the SHIPS
(I don't think more then 2 would be a good idea... perhaps even just 1 new skill per ship)

ESCORT
- Attack Pattern Zeta - 45s cool down... 10s 20% dmg buff (will give tacs back the burst they loose from the alpha dmg reduction... while keeping overall dps with alpha cool down reduction + new zeta pattern at around same point.... gives Sci and Engi a bit of a dmg buff in escorts)
- Attack Pattern Epsilon - 3 min cool down... 5-10 Bonus to Impulse Speed and turn rate... based on hull dmg, just like go down fighting. So this can be a real get out of trouble card if you pop it at 20% hull for instance.

Science ships
- Overloaded sensors - 2min cool down... Instantly apply a Full stack of sensor ann on a target... and remove 1-2 buffs (Sub nuke lite... sort of like an on demand Jem hadar set bonus)
- Beta tachyon Burst (this is from voyager OH no)... 3 min cool down... The shields are Cooled rebooted with a beta tachyon burst... going offline for 2-3s... and coming back online at 100%

Cruisers
-Drop Emergency Bulkheads - 2 min cool down... engage the Emergency bulkheads, increasing hull resistance by 10-20 and increasing repair rate 200-300% for 10-20s (we all know how good this can be now that humans work)
- Warp Core Overdrive... one of the main complains on most cruisers is the turn... why not add a skill with around a 2 min cool down... that for 15s pushes the engines increasing engine power by 10-20 and turn by an amount equal to at least one RCS unit, perhaps even 2.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,384
# 5
02-19-2013, 07:33 AM
Thank you for all the good replies! Keep thinking on how and why the idea has merit, and as we do that I think we'll start to super refine some of these ideas. Does it help balance? Hmm...yes. So how can we put in some MOAR balance???

Captain Abilities aren't the sacred Cows! I am! no no really. They HAVE ranks already. They actually function as Boff Abilities. Just allow lower ranks of Alpha in Cruisers and Scis. Just allow Lower ranks of Nuc in Escorts. You may need to change its effect a bit. Say removes a set maximum number of buffs per rank, up to full rank/power. Give certain ships Fixed Abilities, and allow players to choose 4 more from a pool? Just if its 'out of class' it would be lower rank.

They WANT customizable ships. We want customizable ships. Well this could be a way to satisfy that AND actually smooth out a few balance issues before the incoming Hybrid Storm drowns us all.

And the insight into Doffs vs original balance really is just that. I run a tac cruiser with a Doff Power scheme and it rocks. GIVE ME MOAR POWAH!! It's ridiculous. And it seems that few folks recognize this truth.

Cheers and keep em coming!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 6
02-19-2013, 07:50 AM
Another idea I had, is to make BOFFs, similar to DOFFs.

Each ship would have a certain set of BOFF abilities tied to available subsystems and players could slot them.

For example:

Shield Systems : 2 slots
Energy Weapons: 1 slots
Tractor Beam: 1 slot

Whatever, and player would pick, EptS and RSP Boff in the slot. Beam overload in enegry, and repulsors in tractor beam.

There could be variance between ships, so for example some big fella cruiser like Galaxy could have 4 energy Weapon Boff slots, while Akira a torpedo boat could have up to 4 torpedo skills.

Now, captain types (if we wont get rid of them), will provide additional slots in their respective departments and also provide the opportunity to train unique boffs.

That of course would require comple overhaul
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 7
02-19-2013, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post

at the moment tac does brilliantly in anything but a carrier....the problem is with tac buffs and their interaction with high level sci powers (and even DEM for that matter). NE, EPS, ENg Fleet in comparison add very little oooomph to AUx2Sif 3 or ES3. Tac get similar bonuses by using doffs.


I think the word "brilliantly" is really a stretch here.



My question is why should high level Sci powers be about damage in the first place?

Why should it be alternate damage?


If high level Sci powers were about Debuffs/Controls/Heals then the Tac could pop every cooldown they have and it wouldn't matter.


Unfortunately most people want Sci to be super special mary sues with super special "SCIENCE" damage that only Sci captains are good at using - when realistically Sci shouldn't be about damage at all. (and yes I think the high level Sci abilities should be given a balance pass to do other things.)


For example instead of raw damage, "shield stripping" powers should weaken shields - so lower the regen, lower the resistance, even maybe temporarily lower the cap (not all at once, you should need a handful of abilities in conjunction to get all the effects).

Go ahead, click APA + GDF happy tac, see if it matters now.


A change like that followed by Cryptic going back and balancing Sci powers vs. 9 ranks in any particular resistance skill and the absolute minimum effect they expect any particular skill to do would make more of the offense focused Sci powers a lot more interesting IMO (not that some of them aren't still very strong).

Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
# 8
02-19-2013, 07:55 AM
Give APZ a 1.30 cooldown to put its trimmer on par with the others there are a bunch of cooldown reducers out there anyway so make its minimal at 45 sec
-"There is no such thing as an I win button!" "Um, Sir. Whats this button that says (I win) for then?"
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,702
# 9
02-19-2013, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I think the word "brilliantly" is really a stretch here.



My question is why should high level Sci powers be about damage in the first place?

Why should it be alternate damage?


If high level Sci powers were about Debuffs/Controls/Heals then the Tac could pop every cooldown they have and it wouldn't matter.


Unfortunately most people want Sci to be super special mary sues with super special "SCIENCE" damage that only Sci captains are good at using - when realistically Sci shouldn't be about damage at all. (and yes I think the high level Sci abilities should be given a balance pass to do other things.)


For example instead of raw damage, "shield stripping" powers should weaken shields - so lower the regen, lower the resistance, even maybe temporarily lower the cap (not all at once, you should need a handful of abilities in conjunction to get all the effects).

Go ahead, click APA + GDF happy tac, see if it matters now.


A change like that followed by Cryptic going back and balancing Sci powers vs. 9 ranks in any particular resistance skill and the absolute minimum effect they expect any particular skill to do would make more of the offense focused Sci powers a lot more interesting IMO (not that some of them aren't still very strong).
Because there is PvE in this game, and if sci can put probes into a ball but not crush them it won't happen.

I don;t want sci to outdamage tac. The only reason for the ridiculously cheap and high sci resists available across the board are the interaction between certain tac scills and certain sci abilities.

Take TBR, if my sci could push really well with it and tac could to better damage that would be fine. However, none of my sci or eng cpt skills does anything to achieve this. I can push as hard as any tac/sci ship. The problem starts when Tac buffs affect the dmg numbers, and nothing no other class has anything to increase the push. EPS doesn't help my sci boat is capped aux lvls without it.

If you doubt the "brilliantly" take a tacs in any ship and do some NWS or Elite STFs, or get first place in a FA. NOw repeat the same with a team of engs. I think you get what i mean by "brilliantly"

Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 10
02-19-2013, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post

1) Because there is PvE in this game, and if sci can put probes into a ball but not crush them it won't happen.


2) I don;t want sci to outdamage tac. The only reason for the ridiculously cheap and high sci resists available across the board are the interaction between certain tac scills and certain sci abilities.

3) Take TBR, if my sci could push really well with it and tac could to better damage that would be fine. However, none of my sci or eng cpt skills does anything to achieve this. I can push as hard as any tac/sci ship. The problem starts when Tac buffs affect the dmg numbers, and nothing no other class has anything to increase the push. EPS doesn't help my sci boat is capped aux lvls without it.

4) If you doubt the "brilliantly" take a tacs in any ship and do some NWS or Elite STFs, or get first place in a FA. NOw repeat the same with a team of engs. I think you get what i mean by "brilliantly"


Your green is makes it really hard to reply to you. So I've numbered your points and will number my responses, since I can't be asked to do a bunch of silly re-formatting.

1) That's a PvE environment design issue, and I agree it's a major concern. There are a lot of directions Cryptic could, and should, go to fix this but this is not the PvE subforum.


2) All of the "ridiculously high resists" are to debuffs, not damage - so I don't see the issue being Tacs here.

I'm not convinced that 50% is "ridiculously high" and more what I mentioned earlier - Cryptic needs to sit down and find what is the minimum effect of one player, against one other player, that they want to set as the baseline - and then how that baseline is to stack with other casters and then balance that against the current resists (with 9 ranks providing the baseline opposing resistance, an un-protected target would likely be mauled - which is fine by me).


3) This is a tough one. Technically yes, you are correct. On the other hand a target that has been hit with SNB and Sensor Scan may actually be pushed harder (for example) - but I agree this is less than ideal synergy.


An idea I had, that probably needs a lot more thought than I gave it (approximately 5 minutes), would be that at each levels 10, 20, 30, 40 & 50 - each captain would receive a +30 skill boost to any 1 skill of their specific career path.


It would need to be limited to 1 or 2 applications at most per skill.

Ex: At L10 Capt Sci puts a +30 skill bonus to Flow Caps. At L20 Capt Sci decides to put +30 into Starship Shield Systems.

Meanwhile, Capt Tac decided to put +30 into Attack patterns, and +30 into Starship Energy Weapons at levels 10 and 20. etc.


4) Sorry I thought your original statement was about PvP.

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