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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8
Hi all,

during the last time pvping lead me to the conviction that only a league system will ensure fun play for pvp in the long run. At least at level 50 the range of pvp efficacy is huge within the gamer community. This due to the huge range of personal pvp skill and equipment. Therefore, most of the pug pvp is very one sided, boring for the winning team and annoying for the losing one.

This bad situation gets even worth because of the leechers which ruining the game for the other people. Yesterday I was teamed up with 3 leechers in a 4 man team in a space arena. With a vote kick system I would have been endangered to get kicked by the leechers .

Therefore, let's have a league system for level 50 pvp. We can start with 3 leagues. 3rd league for beginners and people who don't want to play pvp really and just be greedy for the dilithium and fleet marks. 2nd league for casual players which like to play pvp but don?t have the time or ambition to become elite players. 1st league finally for the elite players.

To build up a league system a personal ranking system is necessary. It could look like that:

After each pvp match the rank of the players will be calculated for the whole party, which means for all players from both teams.

Calculation of the rank:

(total number of players)x((personal damage + heals)/(total damage + heals))

In this way very low level players and leechers will have a rank equal or close to 0, dedicated players with a low or average skill will range between 0,1-1 and players skilled above average will receive a rank above 1.

After each match the mean rank from all matches will be calculated for each player.
When queuing for pvp you can only choose the league which matches with your rank. You have to play at least 5 matches in the 3rd league before you can move to the higher league and from 3rd league you cannot directly enter the 1st one. Premade teams can take lower ranked people into higher leagues but not vice versa.

Quote:
Edit: You will move down to the lower league when your rank drops below average (1).
The dedicated pvp players would get quickly rid of the leechers forever and all players will have more fun because of more balanced games. Even in the 3rd leagues the leechers may start play pvp because nobody else does and may be over the time they will develop some fun by doing that.

The argument against a league system is always that the pvp community is too small for that. However, I would expect a significant increase of people in the pvp queues in this way, because there would be much more fun.

What do you think about that?
Cheers
Welan

"any improvement requires change,
but a change is not necessarily an improvement"

Last edited by wiseoak; 02-24-2013 at 06:32 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 2
02-24-2013, 10:19 AM
Its a start,,,i like it.


On top of that how bout some ranking/reward system,,something that keeps track of win/loss record?

For yourself in pugs,,,and a league for dedicated team play,,,get enough teams and have a "season" kind of like football,,,the best records go to the playoffs, top 3 teams win something (enter idea for prize here) could be ECs,,,Dilithium,,,a good lock box ship,,,several random mark XII purple items hell i dont know.

I think it would spike the interest of players to get in league play and keep records/stats and have prizes as well as promote more team play.

As it is now what do they have some tournament once in a blue moon? Make a leauge with a playoff system,,,when that season is over it starts fresh again. Would love to see something like this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 3
02-24-2013, 10:20 AM
oh and brackets in the playoffs,,,either single or double elimination,,,preferably double that way everyone gets a 2nd chance to learn from mistakes or what not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 197
# 4
02-24-2013, 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseoak View Post
Calculation of the rank:

(total number of players)x((personal damage + heals)/(total damage + heals))
I'm sure the other members of the OPvP community can present other arguments for/against a league setup, but I noticed that this rank calculation here has a major problem: not everything in STO PvP is damage or heals. This ranking formula would fail to take into account holds, disables, debuffs, etc., which typically where Sci does its job best. With this ranking formula, the contribution of a Sci player who times his SNBs just right, or VM's an enemy player just when his team's alpha is ready, would be vastly underrepresented.

In addition, it's not just about the raw value of damage or heals that is given; it's also about exactly when that damage or those heals or applied. In general, spike damage is considered to be far more useful than pressure damage at the moment; 1k damage delivered over 3s is far more effective at putting dents in enemy ships than that 1k damage spread out over 30s.

If Cryptic did implement a league system for STO PvP, they'd have to put a lot of thought into how the ranking system would be implemented.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,052
# 5
02-24-2013, 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by renimalt View Post
I'm sure the other members of the OPvP community can present other arguments for/against a league setup, but I noticed that this rank calculation here has a major problem: not everything in STO PvP is damage or heals. This ranking formula would fail to take into account holds, disables, debuffs, etc., which typically where Sci does its job best. With this ranking formula, the contribution of a Sci player who times his SNBs just right, or VM's an enemy player just when his team's alpha is ready, would be vastly underrepresented.

In addition, it's not just about the raw value of damage or heals that is given; it's also about exactly when that damage or those heals or applied. In general, spike damage is considered to be far more useful than pressure damage at the moment; 1k damage delivered over 3s is far more effective at putting dents in enemy ships than that 1k damage spread out over 30s.

If Cryptic did implement a league system for STO PvP, they'd have to put a lot of thought into how the ranking system would be implemented.
Contribution. How does one measure contribution? Even other team members may not realize the contributions made by their fellows without going back and watching capture video from all those involved, eh? Even then, it would have to be slowed down - shown from multiple angles... etc, etc, etc. Something that's not at all likely to be worked into any system - there's no panel of judges to watch each and every bout to score the participants on their involvement - their contribution.

Stats - well, we all know how meaningless those can be - how easy it is to take those out of context. Woot, woot - I did over 500k damage and healing! I didn't kill nor heal another player - but look at my numbers! So those - well, they matter in simplistic settings - but this is far from such.

Win - Loss - Quality of Opponent. Yes, there's a game out there that does this. There are several games that do this. It breaks it down to the simple did you win or did you lose. When there are so many factors involved, sometimes this is what you're left with in the ened, eh? Were you on a "good" team that beat a "better" team - were you on a "great" team that beat a "what's PvP?" team - did you lose an "even" match - did you have a bad day against a "bad" team... and it goes from there.

When contributions cannot be measured and stats do not tell the whole story...what are you left with to rank a player? Win - Loss - Quality of Opponent.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 6
02-24-2013, 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Contribution. How does one measure contribution? Even other team members may not realize the contributions made by their fellows without going back and watching capture video from all those involved, eh? Even then, it would have to be slowed down - shown from multiple angles... etc, etc, etc. Something that's not at all likely to be worked into any system - there's no panel of judges to watch each and every bout to score the participants on their involvement - their contribution.

Stats - well, we all know how meaningless those can be - how easy it is to take those out of context. Woot, woot - I did over 500k damage and healing! I didn't kill nor heal another player - but look at my numbers! So those - well, they matter in simplistic settings - but this is far from such.

Win - Loss - Quality of Opponent. Yes, there's a game out there that does this. There are several games that do this. It breaks it down to the simple did you win or did you lose. When there are so many factors involved, sometimes this is what you're left with in the ened, eh? Were you on a "good" team that beat a "better" team - were you on a "great" team that beat a "what's PvP?" team - did you lose an "even" match - did you have a bad day against a "bad" team... and it goes from there.

When contributions cannot be measured and stats do not tell the whole story...what are you left with to rank a player? Win - Loss - Quality of Opponent.



I agree.

I want a win loss (reg season record to qualify for a playoff atmosphere) same as basketball or football,,,stats are great, but in the end teamwork and win/loss is what matters.

Jordan may have been the best player in NBA history ( said may) but he had a supporting cast,,he never had a true dominant center,,,but with his skills, combined with pippen,,,kerr,,,armstrong,,grant,,,rodman,,paxon,, ,ect ect...it was what was needed.

You can take the best 1 on 1 pvper in the game,,give him a s##t team and he will not advance through the playoffs.

I wouldnt mind seeing an MVP award though.

But all in all,,,win/loss and championship,,,thats all that matters.

id rather have a team of average/slightly above average players that win it all,,then tom brady as my QB looking nice with his numbers and we dont win it all.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 7
02-24-2013, 09:15 PM
Maybe it's time Cryptic starts putting some serious consideration into PvP as an ESports venue and implementing a system along the lines of ELO for Ranked play.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 8
02-25-2013, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrimcorsair View Post
Maybe it's time Cryptic starts putting some serious consideration into PvP as an ESports venue and implementing a system along the lines of ELO for Ranked play.


There was a place called gamebattles online when i used to play rainbow six vegas two for my ps3 online,,,your clans could register their and they kept track of your pvp matches with other clans, and their were awards.

I wouldnt want to deal with a 2nd website though,,STO should just keep track and let us have a league with win/loss records and prizes for say top 3 teams.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,702
# 9
02-25-2013, 05:40 AM
Well I can't find the archived post, but i remember quite clearly that STahl mentioned new tech to come to sto, that would allow them to track contributions better.

This was sometime around S5 i believe. Now look at the FAs, and Fleet missions and how they calculate contributions? seen anything , i don't. How about tracking shield damage via tets, tachyon etc. Afaik the game itself doesn't track these properly (note track, not apply).

So Dstahl, about that new tech cmoing soon(tm) i guess. I mean the leaderboards that were in testing in S2 surely will recieve clearance from QnA just after the May update, right??
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 881
# 10
02-25-2013, 07:29 AM
An elo system would be awesome, with increased rewards for beating high elo teams, culminating with significant rewards at the top. That way you place a carrot that encourages players to advance in PvP, a high elo becomes a coveted possession, and PvP becomes a major force in the game.
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