Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 185
# 41
02-19-2013, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
That argument might hold water, had Stahl not had his little pre-S7 chat on the forums accknowledging player feedback, and promising to adhere to the nearly universal hatred of the STF neutering he eventually tried to sneak in when S7 launched.

When you tell people "hey we're listening and we're going to make changes based on your feedback", and then turn around and do exactly the opposite it gives the very clear impression that you're one (or more) of the following:

Lying
Oblivious
Incompetent

None of which are things that engender trust.
We absolutely do listen to feedback. But there is another issue, some people like to exploit.

I take full responsibility and freely admit that we have been heavy handed with closing exploits and that in the future we will strive to be more considerate about how we close loopholes. Providing clear alternatives for players NOT exploiting while we close down the holes.

If you go back in time to when Foundry missions HAD NO REWARDS, these issues were not around. It is only when we started adding "tangible" rewards to the Foundry that the issues surrounding the Foundry became more in depth.

We want to reward Foundry missions. We want players to be recognized for making great missions (where great is determined by the player base - not us).

However, as soon as we started attaching real rewards to the Foundry, exploits started.

Whether it was the click a contact missions or the recent AFK farming of Foundry missions, having rewards on Foundry missions is problematic.

We take responsibility for putting the rewards there in the first place, but it is out of our desire to credit those who make missions in the Foundry that achieve status in the community.

So recently, we pulled Fleet Marks from the Foundry because there were too many people AFK completing missions, or in other words logging into the mission, letting the client sit there for 30 minutes and then collecting rewards, and Fleet Marks to boot.

Should we have upped the Fleet Marks on other missions before we pulled the FMs from the Foundry? Well I think the answer is obviously yes.

But to think that we are pulling Fleet Marks without an intention to add them back is false. We really do monitor Fleet Marks daily and we know how last week's changes impacted overall Fleet Mark earning. We will be compensating in this week's update to Holodeck.

Will it make everyone happy? no. But it will add Fleet Marks back into the economy.

We do plan to continue updating the Fleet Mark economies as the game progresses and as stated in posts several days ago, we will be reclassifying what are Events and what are Fleet Actions with a goal of making Fleet Marks the reward for "Group" gameplay.

Fleet Projects are only a small percentage Fleet Mark based so if you do not like to "group" then you'll have to contribute in other ways. We DO expect Fleet Holdings to require "group" gameplay for the most part. This is why we will continue to tune Fleet Holdings up through the May update.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 488
# 42
02-19-2013, 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimitarj4 View Post
it just gives the impression that they don't give a damn.
I'm sure for the most part that it becomes just a job for them. Ultimately, they're subject to the dictates of upper management, which is always protected from the ****storm and has totally different priorities from players (even though making player priorities their own priorities would probably result in greater revenue over the long term).

Also, in the case of some specific bugs, there may not be a fix, an easy fix, or a practical fix, etc. You and I certainly have no idea what programming corners they cut along the way, or just how much of a mess the code is (I wouldn't even be qualified to guess, though you better be damn sure I'd be complaining about it if it seemed to be affecting performance).

And that's why forum posters practically need to be unruly; the only way to reach upper management is through developers (who we're already often dealing with through an intermediary), and the only way to do that is by scaring them ****less, to the point that management can read the fear in their eyes (or something, you get the idea). They're no doubt underfunded, understaffed, overworked, there's plenty of stuff to fix with the existing content and yet they're always pushed to work on new content (read: new revenue).

Last edited by millimidget; 02-19-2013 at 10:11 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7
# 43
02-19-2013, 10:07 AM
Hey, I didn't say that! lol
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,475
# 44
02-19-2013, 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
We absolutely do listen to feedback. But there is another issue, some people like to exploit.

I take full responsibility and freely admit that we have been heavy handed with closing exploits and that in the future we will strive to be more considerate about how we close loopholes. Providing clear alternatives for players NOT exploiting while we close down the holes.

If you go back in time to when Foundry missions HAD NO REWARDS, these issues were not around. It is only when we started adding "tangible" rewards to the Foundry that the issues surrounding the Foundry became more in depth.

We want to reward Foundry missions. We want players to be recognized for making great missions (where great is determined by the player base - not us).

However, as soon as we started attaching real rewards to the Foundry, exploits started.

Whether it was the click a contact missions or the recent AFK farming of Foundry missions, having rewards on Foundry missions is problematic.

We take responsibility for putting the rewards there in the first place, but it is out of our desire to credit those who make missions in the Foundry that achieve status in the community.

So recently, we pulled Fleet Marks from the Foundry because there were too many people AFK completing missions, or in other words logging into the mission, letting the client sit there for 30 minutes and then collecting rewards, and Fleet Marks to boot.

Should we have upped the Fleet Marks on other missions before we pulled the FMs from the Foundry? Well I think the answer is obviously yes.

But to think that we are pulling Fleet Marks without an intention to add them back is false. We really do monitor Fleet Marks daily and we know how last week's changes impacted overall Fleet Mark earning. We will be compensating in this week's update to Holodeck.

Will it make everyone happy? no. But it will add Fleet Marks back into the economy.

We do plan to continue updating the Fleet Mark economies as the game progresses and as stated in posts several days ago, we will be reclassifying what are Events and what are Fleet Actions with a goal of making Fleet Marks the reward for "Group" gameplay.

Fleet Projects are only a small percentage Fleet Mark based so if you do not like to "group" then you'll have to contribute in other ways. We DO expect Fleet Holdings to require "group" gameplay for the most part. This is why we will continue to tune Fleet Holdings up through the May update.

While a decent explanation of your course of action (one that I still don't agree with or accept mind you, but we're long past that now) in regards to IOR, you still haven't spoken to the second elephant in the room: your apparent utter disdain for smaller fleets being viable in the fleet holding system.

Last edited by stirling191; 02-19-2013 at 10:15 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 45
02-19-2013, 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
We absolutely do listen to feedback.
Dan, with all due respect, why are you posting this here when the Fleet Marks thread needs your attention?

Not that it isn't appreciated - it's great when you take the time to discuss things with the community but you don't do it nearly often enough or in-depth enough.

If it's a problem for you - if there's just too many issues that need your attention and too few hours in the day then get someone to do it for you.

I'm going to copy your post across to the Fleet Marks one because it's a good post.
Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
Proudly not contributing to PWE's bottom-line since October 2012
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 129
# 46
02-19-2013, 10:15 AM
dastahl, I sympathize with you on this issue,as the unintended consequences of trying to help get more players into the Foundry has caused all sorts of FM problems. We City of Hero fans saw this same thing happen with Mission Architect when that went live several years ago. For every exploit that was "fixed" (making many people unhappy), 2 new ones would suddenly pop up.

Basically, there's no way to stop Foundry exploits when there's an economic incentive for players to create those exploits.

Maybe give incentives for playing JUST those Foundry missions that are "official" spotlight ones.

I started a new alt this weekend just as a break from doing Fleet stuff, and I'd forgotten that there are some pretty good story missions in here. Maybe you could add 'some" Dil for replays of these missions by players. Between that and some Dil for spotlight Foundry missions (maybe an added 2-3 new Spotlights a month), people could get the Dil they need AND have a variety of ways to do it.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 488
# 47
02-19-2013, 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Should we have upped the Fleet Marks on other missions before we pulled the FMs from the Foundry? Well I think the answer is obviously yes.
Could we maybe get some extra elite level fleet queues? And maybe some New Romulan ones as well (just not Mine Trap; it's awesome, but hard enough already with most PUGs)?

EDIT: Might as well add the biggest wish list item, even though it's unrelated - what are the odds you can make reputation account wide? I'd really like to start working on an alt (at a cost of 100+ zen for the build, all of which I'll be paying cash for), but the rep grind alone is keeping me from getting behind the idea. It's the future of rep grinding in MMO gaming; might as well start the trend, or at least be an early adopter.

Last edited by millimidget; 02-19-2013 at 10:19 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 48
02-19-2013, 10:18 AM
Its not only small Fleets, KDF Fleets due to their smaller playbase have much longer queues and their ability to generate Fleet Marks is significant lower that Federation Fleets.

The preposterous Fleet Marks requirements are the main issue, also they kill future growth so enjoy some Mega Fleets and then dead or stuck Fleets because THAT is the future, the Fleet System exists only for a few, everyone that gets into the game now can forget about using it.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 281
# 49
02-19-2013, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
We want to reward Foundry missions. We want players to be recognized for making great missions (where great is determined by the player base - not us).

.
Maybe you could email that statement to Brandflakes. SO that he can re-evaluate how he personally picks spotlight missions and allow the community to have some input on great foundry missions that are spotlighted.

Beers,

Jengoz
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 186
# 50
02-19-2013, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
We absolutely do listen to feedback. But there is another issue, some people like to exploit.
This is human nature, don't work hard, work smart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
If you go back in time to when Foundry missions HAD NO REWARDS, these issues were not around. It is only when we started adding "tangible" rewards to the Foundry that the issues surrounding the Foundry became more in depth.
Keep in mind, you introduced the foundry to the game, you introduced rewards to it. You made its issues. a set group of players took advantage of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
We want to reward Foundry missions. We want players to be recognized for making great missions (where great is determined by the player base - not us).
Then you need to immediately remove the foundry spotlight, as that is you determining them, not us. This shows favoritism by you, not us. This also creates an image problem for you since only certain types of missions seem to be spotlighted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
However, as soon as we started attaching real rewards to the Foundry, exploits started.
Again, see my first reply, also know, you created the probelm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Whether it was the click a contact missions or the recent AFK farming of Foundry missions, having rewards on Foundry missions is problematic.
Indeed it is, I would suggest, you remove them, this gets rid of what is becoming a MAJOR source of issues for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
We take responsibility for putting the rewards there in the first place, but it is out of our desire to credit those who make missions in the Foundry that achieve status in the community.
You don't have to credit them, let us do that, if we like it, we play it. if not, we don't. Keeping the foundry at a distance from you helps keep you from looking like you're engaged in Favoritism, right now, its not the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
So recently, we pulled Fleet Marks from the Foundry because there were too many people AFK completing missions, or in other words logging into the mission, letting the client sit there for 30 minutes and then collecting rewards, and Fleet Marks to boot.
This, would be less, of an issue if you hadn't made the IOR, a 30 minute repeatable mission. Again, you created the enabling device for this exploit. People aren't stupid, the IOR in that form was the single best way to gain everything you need in the game, in one place, with little to no effort. When you make it so, expect people to use it in the worse way possible
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Should we have upped the Fleet Marks on other missions before we pulled the FMs from the Foundry? Well I think the answer is obviously yes.
If you do, then do explain why you didn't do it with the changes? Why not delay the change until you can? Yes it would have allowed an exploit to continue for a while, but you'd still come out better for it. Close the exploit and provide a better alternate route. Those who didn't exploit wouldn't have been effected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
But to think that we are pulling Fleet Marks without an intention to add them back is false. We really do monitor Fleet Marks daily and we know how last week's changes impacted overall Fleet Mark earning. We will be compensating in this week's update to Holodeck.
see above
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Will it make everyone happy? no. But it will add Fleet Marks back into the economy.
Again,see above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
We do plan to continue updating the Fleet Mark economies as the game progresses and as stated in posts several days ago, we will be reclassifying what are Events and what are Fleet Actions with a goal of making Fleet Marks the reward for "Group" gameplay.
I would caution you to not make it "flleet" group only. Consider some fleets, aren't always on at the same time, some folks are in odd Time zones for the fleet, things like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Fleet Projects are only a small percentage Fleet Mark based so if you do not like to "group" then you'll have to contribute in other ways. We DO expect Fleet Holdings to require "group" gameplay for the most part. This is why we will continue to tune Fleet Holdings up through the May update.
This is fine, but I would also highly suggest you consider the small fleets in this. Go look at some of the suggestions that have been offered to you to IMPROVE your system, to make more folks happy, yet, keep them in game. the suggestion of a smaller fleet having less items to put in, but more time to have it complete was a perfect one in my opinion, as it rewards you for having both sides. large fleet takes less time, small fleet takes less material.

And last Sir, I want you to consider my signature, and its meaning. If we're not having fun, then why log in?
Next time you log in, ask yourself this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
If you can't have fun, then what is the point?
Reply

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