Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,002
# 111
02-21-2013, 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
NO you are 100% wrong... here is the real story for you.

" The Bird of Prey is one of the most common Klingon ships seen in the Star Trek franchise. Introduced in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, the Bird of Prey has featured in five of the films and frequently appears in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. Industrial Light & Magic designed and built the Bird of Prey for Star Trek III, assisted by the film's director, Leonard Nimoy. In early drafts of the script, the Bird of Prey was to be a Romulan vessel; although this idea was later dropped, the Bird of Prey maintained its cloaking device as a plot point in the film and the Romulan bird feather patterns on its wings were kept. The Bird of Prey is the first Klingon vessel depicted with a cloaking device; all classes chronologically later in the series would also use a cloaking device. The wings of the Bird of Prey are able to move, lowering to attack, maintaining just above horizontal in flight mode and raising high when the ship lands. However, as the studio model's mechanism for moving the wings broke, in later Star Trek series' episodes the wings are usually fixed in either flight mode or attack mode. This was not rectified until the creation of a CGI model for the vessel. The studio models for the Bird of Prey were sold in the 2006 Christie's auction; the original model sold for US$307,200,[5] while an enlarged wing, used for close-up shots in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, was sold for US$8,400. " - Wikipedia

There it is... The first draft of the Star Trek III script was to feature a story about Kruge stealing a Romulan ship... however that was dropped and as such has nothing at all to do with cannon. The fact that following Klink Generals commanded bops in the later films is proof that it was dropped. Why would they install proto type cloaking on romulan ships ? The Bird of Prey is a Klingon Vessel... and in the time frame of the next gen... and the time frame of STO... it is the most widely deployed ship in the Klingon fleet... full stop.

ILM under Ken Ralston and with consultation from Niomy developed the Bird of Prey design as well as the excelsior, and the first grand earth space dock. That film was the jumping point for much of what most of us consider Iconic trek.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "meant"?

The fact that it's a legitimate Klingon ship doesn't demean the importance of Romulan design ethics, technology, and terminology. Trying to claim a ship with all these things represents the Klingon people is foolish. In every series, the Klingons value strength, and in all but one series the Klingons value honor, you'll find more of both those things in the battle cruiser line. Every Klingon high chancellor except one has used a battle cruiser for their flag ship. Kronos one in UC, the chancellor before Gowron, Gowron, and then Gowron again in the Negh'Var. That's an 80% rate in favor for battlecruisers being used to represent the Klingons.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The Constellation is made up primarily of Connie refit parts and it is tier 5, there is no logical reason whatsoever for the no tier 5/6 connie rule.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,879
# 112
02-21-2013, 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Do you understand the meaning of the word "meant"?

The fact that it's a legitimate Klingon ship doesn't demean the importance of Romulan design ethics, technology, and terminology. Trying to claim a ship with all these things represents the Klingon people is foolish. In every series, the Klingons value strength, and in all but one series the Klingons value honor, you'll find more of both those things in the battle cruiser line. Every Klingon high chancellor except one has used a battle cruiser for their flag ship. Kronos one in UC, the chancellor before Gowron, Gowron, and then Gowron again in the Negh'Var. That's an 80% rate in favor for battlecruisers being used to represent the Klingons.
You can read it THAT way, or you could read it as the Chancellor choosing the least defensible position in a flotilla as a means to inspire his warriors to victory, or you could account for the need to maintain a large staff-the POTUS doesn't fly in an F-22, he rides in an airliner, and the Chancellor would have similar requirements-remember, the Klingon Empire is an interstellar power, with concurrent requirements including huge administrative sinks that won't FIT on a Bird of Prey.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,829
# 113
02-22-2013, 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Do you understand the meaning of the word "meant"?

The fact that it's a legitimate Klingon ship doesn't demean the importance of Romulan design ethics, technology, and terminology. Trying to claim a ship with all these things represents the Klingon people is foolish. In every series, the Klingons value strength, and in all but one series the Klingons value honor, you'll find more of both those things in the battle cruiser line. Every Klingon high chancellor except one has used a battle cruiser for their flag ship. Kronos one in UC, the chancellor before Gowron, Gowron, and then Gowron again in the Negh'Var. That's an 80% rate in favor for battlecruisers being used to represent the Klingons.
As a command ship sure the Chancellors rode in style in the battle cruisers. Nothing shocking there... that's like saying the boeing 747 is the grand representation of US military might because the president rides around in one.

Yes fair you get that it was intended to be a romulan ship but in fact wasn't... and of course they kept the greenish hue and the bird feather pattern so point taken.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,738
# 114
02-22-2013, 12:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Do you understand the meaning of the word "meant"?

The fact that it's a legitimate Klingon ship doesn't demean the importance of Romulan design ethics, technology, and terminology. Trying to claim a ship with all these things represents the Klingon people is foolish. In every series, the Klingons value strength, and in all but one series the Klingons value honor, you'll find more of both those things in the battle cruiser line. Every Klingon high chancellor except one has used a battle cruiser for their flag ship. Kronos one in UC, the chancellor before Gowron, Gowron, and then Gowron again in the Negh'Var. That's an 80% rate in favor for battlecruisers being used to represent the Klingons.
There is nothing more honorable than victory.


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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,002
# 115
02-22-2013, 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
There is nothing more honorable than victory.
There is nothing more honorable than honorably obtained victory IMO.

I'l just add one more thing, there is only one BOP design in canon, there may be different sizes and classes, but only one visage. When the show writers and designers needed a new look for the klingons they chose to make a battle cruiser. That means that every time the writers or designers wanted to add a new way to see the Klingons or had a chance to change the way their fleets worked they sided with evolving the battlecruiser design. As far as we can tell, the Klingons put more effort into the technological and aesthetic evolution of the BC line than anything else.

Good luck with getting more bops in the game.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The Constellation is made up primarily of Connie refit parts and it is tier 5, there is no logical reason whatsoever for the no tier 5/6 connie rule.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,829
# 116
02-22-2013, 12:49 AM
Well that simply isn't true.

All you have to is watch the shows for that... there are as many BOP designs in the shows and movies as there are shows and movies.

Even the later shows like enterprise took BOP design elements... the only real ship they designed was the Raptor... and they based it heavily on the ILM designs for the bop, and the D7... which if you look at it lends lots of design ques to what was the final BOP from ILM as well.

I won't argue that Battle Cruisers are not klingon ships... of course they are... but they are not the main contingent of the fleet... they are the fleets cruiser command ships... being klinks they go to war. They even have non honorable cloaks as well.
Its like saying the defiant class and the miranda ect are Non Iconic fed ship because Large Cruisers is what the heros always fly.

There are only 3 TRUE klink designs in cannon...
D7 / Battle Cruiser (negvar) / and BOP
That's it all else are derived from those 3.

And no the Klingon quote is as snoge00f states it. There is no provision to fight with honor... with out victory there is no honor.

All you silly feds that say there is no honor in cloaking devices are completely at odds with the Trek Writers.

Klingons Honor bound warrior race... use cloak on every ship they take to war.
Jem soliders... Breed to be Honor bound warrior race... They use cloaking in hand to hand combat.

I think the idea that cloaking has no honor is funny... and so do the Star Trek Creators quite obviously.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,879
# 117
02-22-2013, 01:30 AM
Looking at the Haynes manual for the Bird of Prey class has just given me a really sick idea for consideration in this discussion...

Per the book, under the propulsion systems and before the chapter on the Warp Nacelle (Wing) design, they mention that the BoP can use it's warp engines at fractional warp to increase the objective speed of the ship, and to increase the rate of turn.

so how's this for an alternative to the suggested 3rd aft weapons mount:

Give it an INSANELY high impulse modifier. FASTER at "impulse" speeds than a Bugship (without console support), FASTER than a Defiant (both in straight-line AND turn rate).

Coupled with "Combat" impulse engines that run better below an energy input of 50, a sufficiently high Impulse mod would mean you could run high power to weps or Aux (or shields) without losing speed or turn-rate, and it would be the ship that COULD gain the max benefit from KHG or Omega engines-because, potentially, it could match the base, non-adjusted speed of a Bugship or Defiant, with better turn rate, at much, much, lower power levels, and at the SAME power levels, it could out-run and out-turn them, bringing up a higher 'speed tank' to make up for the reduced number of weapons and reduced number of consoles available.

Something on the order of an Impulse mod of...what, twice the next best? with a turn rate of 20, and 3 or 4 tac consoles?

Just a thought.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.

Last edited by patrickngo; 02-22-2013 at 01:38 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 118
02-22-2013, 01:36 AM
Ah the manuals, and technical fluff...the same stuff that gives the Galaxy the most powerful saucer phaser array and huge rapid fire torpedo launchers. keep dreaming
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,879
# 119
02-22-2013, 01:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Ah the manuals, and technical fluff...the same stuff that gives the Galaxy the most powerful saucer phaser array and huge rapid fire torpedo launchers. keep dreaming
Hey, I'm just tossing out ideas here, this one would make some sense, imho, as a counter to both the Bugship, AND the Kumari's advantages (as well as a counter to the other 5-console FedScorts and upcoming Lockbox 'scorts...)

Make the BoP FAST, as in REAL fast, fast enough to make up for being weaker in terms of shields, hull, weapons, etc. in comparison to everything else in the game. In one stroke you balance out the contest of designs, because it still requires effort to use effectively, but it's an advantage that doesn't require re-writing every system in an established line of vessels, doesn't obselete any existing ships, and falls into the basic "Hit and fade" nature of the Raider classification.

AND it makes the ship a threat-without infringing on the Duopoly of FedScort/Bugship superiority in firepower.

Under this model, our theoretical "Advanced Heavy" BoP with three tac consoles could run with power settings that make up some of that deficiency, while not losing accelleration or turn rate compared to FedScorts running the Hilbert classix-because said BoP could apply more power to weapons, shields, or Aux, thus making up one or more of it's weaknesses compared to foes with more console space, and it COULD concievably run-off from a JemBug to 'Out of weapons range" during that 12 seconds it can't cloak, or force the Jembug to go to FULL IMPULSE to catch it before it CAN cloak. (insert Kumari, Fleet Defiant, etc. for the Bug...)

and on the attack, to maintain good defensive numbrs, it could use the "Classic Hilbert" setup and still be moving faster than it's most likely opponents-making it a more difficult kill to achieve in spite of lower hull, shield, and console boosts.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,829
# 120
02-22-2013, 02:02 AM
Speaking of speed this is another area where the bop has really been dumped on.

The BOP was Fast. it was the fastest ship in the game for the first year and a half... the bop did have the best turn... by far. Yes Yes I know it still does on paper have the best turn rate... its just not by all that much anymore. The fed ships get more and more turn... every escort has a min amount and some more... the JEM is cross faction so its not far to point at it but sure its with in a sliver of bop turn. When a fleet bop gets a turn bump it looses some hull... when a fleet bop gets a console or something else shiny it looses some turn.

Ya know its funny I said in my op... hey Turn 23 on my new Cstore bop... and people think thats crazy.... do they not realize the Hegh has had a 22 turn rate since launch day. lol

Sure feds have fought for 4 years to go from turn rates of 12 to 18 as standard... good on em I like my fed escorts they do turn nice... but every bump they have gotten the bop has not... and it used to be that yes you could have a great dog fight with a fed ship... because if you flew smart and turned proper and stayed out of the big guns often enough you could compensate for the fragile nature of the BOP....
Now any competent Fed Escort pilot even with out Doff driven 50% omega up time will be able to mostly keep up with the BOP turn and fry them pretty easy. They won't have to plan a turn...
Posts I used to make about immelman turns and other fun tricks to out think your target... well mostly there pointless now... Just put it in reverse turn the guns and fire away. lol

I don't think the bop needs more turn then it has don't get me wrong... but to suggest a ONE point bump on the cstore I was being VERY VERY conservative. Really instead of suggesting 23 I should have said 25 or even 26. lol That would have put it back to the gap it had vs the fed scorts on launch day.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
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