Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 997
# 121
02-22-2013, 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Well that simply isn't true.

All you have to is watch the shows for that... there are as many BOP designs in the shows and movies as there are shows and movies.

Even the later shows like enterprise took BOP design elements... the only real ship they designed was the Raptor... and they based it heavily on the ILM designs for the bop, and the D7... which if you look at it lends lots of design ques to what was the final BOP from ILM as well.

I won't argue that Battle Cruisers are not klingon ships... of course they are... but they are not the main contingent of the fleet... they are the fleets cruiser command ships... being klinks they go to war. They even have non honorable cloaks as well.
Its like saying the defiant class and the miranda ect are Non Iconic fed ship because Large Cruisers is what the heros always fly.

There are only 3 TRUE klink designs in cannon...
D7 / Battle Cruiser (negvar) / and BOP
That's it all else are derived from those 3.

And no the Klingon quote is as snoge00f states it. There is no provision to fight with honor... with out victory there is no honor.

All you silly feds that say there is no honor in cloaking devices are completely at odds with the Trek Writers.

Klingons Honor bound warrior race... use cloak on every ship they take to war.
Jem soliders... Breed to be Honor bound warrior race... They use cloaking in hand to hand combat.

I think the idea that cloaking has no honor is funny... and so do the Star Trek Creators quite obviously.
I completely forgot about the ENT BOP, my mistake. But still that's two BOPS, 1 or 2 raptors, and 5 battlecruiser style ships over the history of Trek. Going back in time to prove that modern klingons didn't just stream line BOP production or give more than a marginal amount of care for their evolution just doesn't work in an argument about modern Trek. And the statement of writers preference in new asset creation still stands like 80% of the time.

Quote:
Its like saying the defiant class and the miranda ect are Non Iconic fed ship because Large Cruisers is what the heros always fly.
But thats a huge part of the issue. All but one of the major star trek captains flew a form of cruiser design, with the iconic cruiser shape. Thats a majority of the captains who defined star trek in general, I love and value designs like the reliant, but to say it represented the Federation more than the Connie or Galaxy would be inadequate. Those are the designs that actively succeed at every mission goal of the Federation. As command ships they must be reliably called upon to carry out as many tasks as the Federation requires. The same would go for Klingon battlecruisers which were often times considered the Klingon equivalent of federation cruisers, as much as Klingons value combat over all else, their leaders and venerable officers need to be at certain places at certain times. If a scientific emergency crops up you need one of the best scientists with the best equipment to deal with the problem. Klingon cruisers didn't have great scientific facilities, but they were better than what a twelve man ship could do. Just as the best of the Federation carry the image of the star fleet, so too do such klingon ships and captains.

Kor, Kang, Koloth, Gowron, Gorkon, and K'mpec were all famous Klingons who preferred cruisers.

Chang, Kruge, and Martok were the famous BOP captains. (Chang favored cruisers in Klingon Academy, but il put him here because we are discussing the establishment of iconic ships)

The majority of famous star trek shows took place on cruisers, and the majority of famous Klingon captains captained cruisers. We got to know those famous Klingons more than any other, they defined what it means to be Klingon, and in doing so they had their ships established as the iconic form too.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The Constellation is made up primarily of Connie refit parts and it is tier 5, there is no logical reason whatsoever for the no tier 5/6 connie rule.

Last edited by cidstorm; 02-22-2013 at 02:07 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,784
# 122
02-22-2013, 02:20 AM
Well bottom line... this is a game... not a RP recreation.

So lets look the 3 classes and see what roles are filled.

Klingon

Cruisers - CHECK... the Klinks have multiple fantastic cruiser designs. A ton that are very usable good fleet cruiser options... and even nice iconic D7 Style and Neg style skins.
No issues with cruisers

Escorts - Raptor - Hands down the worst Escort in the game... and you won't get a real argument FOR the raptor from anyone... people fly it if they really really want an escort klink side... and really most of those people fly one of the naus ships if they really want a KDF escort. SO.... Fail

Science - Gorn Varnus - The ONE and only KDF science ship option... it is a mirror of the worst of the Federation Science ship layouts... it has gotten a few buffs but in general it is found lacking and rarely used. I know I said this is not a RP recreation... however its still NOT a Klingon ship... sorry its GORN and I don't remember seeing them at the meetings. lol

So from a game point of view what do the Klinks need end game to pull ship balance close to even... well they need a science option and they need a real honest escort option.

NOW I don't want mirror factions... that's boring as all heck. As far as I know (not sure if they know however) the Devs don't want a mirror faction either. They want the Klingons and likely the Romulans to be Unique....

So what makes the Klingons Unique... and what could solve both ship issues in ONE simple to implement update.

That's right re read my OP.... A C Store BOP that can return the Sci Bop to the field .... a field it has mostly hasn't been on in over 2 years due to Federation science ship power creep. (really thinking about that more I should have suggested an even more radical Science bop variant with Sensor Ann and perhaps even Sub targeting)

The escort issue... YA I still don't understand how the Raptor a Canon SCOUT vessel ended up being the base for the STO Klingon faction escort designs... but none the less its to much like the fed ships anyway... and doesn't really make the faction unique imo... its really a bad defiant that turns worse... looks terrible, and has such bad pivot issues that it is unplayable. So lets just stagnate the Raptor... and Go forward with renewed BOPS... who cares if the new bops obsolete a few KDF ships... Cryptic has been doing that with Federation Cstore ships for 2 years now.

In any event I hope its clear where I am coming from... I do appreciate the "trek" stuff and I think all the canon really says the BOP is multi role and is really the back bone of the KDF fleet... yes they have cruisers but for almost every other role they use a bop. Small ones for scouting... medium ones for raiding and general warfare... and large ones even that act like faster more agile cruisers. (think Excel).

Most of the point of my op is its an idea that could be brain stormed by Cryptic... programmed and have all the associated Art completed in ONE day of work... and it would right 2 of the major imbalances in the ship rosters of the two factions over night. If they want to go further and add honestly Klingon science ship options ect later let them the fed ship parade isn't over and the roms are coming.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,308
# 123
02-22-2013, 02:36 AM
There is no doubt that the klinks have been badly neglected. Will just get worse with another semi faction so is introducing another faction before klinks get parity a good idea?
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 124
02-22-2013, 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
There is no doubt that the klinks have been badly neglected. Will just get worse with another semi faction so is introducing another faction before klinks get parity a good idea?
Well, from my perspective Cryptic does not try to create equal factions. There simply is not enough players. If 80% players are Starfleet fanboys (guilty as charged hehe), then 80% of devs attention goes to that side. It's kind of logical from bussiness point.

So I guess we will end up with Federation as being main faction, with several smaller factions for other fanboy.

But ye, I would prefer to see much more BoPs on Klingon Side, so I support this idea.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,784
# 125
02-22-2013, 02:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Well, from my perspective Cryptic does not try to create equal factions. There simply is not enough players. If 80% players are Starfleet fanboys (guilty as charged hehe), then 80% of devs attention goes to that side. It's kind of logical from bussiness point.

So I guess we will end up with Federation as being main faction, with several smaller factions for other fanboy.

But ye, I would prefer to see much more BoPs on Klingon Side, so I support this idea.
I agree completely... if I owned Cryptic I would have them releasing Fed ships as well. Lets be honest Fed ships sell likely 10x more units then Klink packs.

That's where my idea comes in... very little output. Klingon players don't want new skins for some obscure race that was associated with the Empire back in some non canon book. I don't expect Cryptic to spend weeks perfecting new skins and designing entire new ship classes.

Just take the one in game that can be tweeked to fill the missing roles... use existing skins that WE LOVE and will buy again anyway.

Quick and dirty is fine with the Klingon population... and we will open our wallets to make it a $ gain for Cryptic. They won't loose money... and there dev time will not have been more profitable working on a new Kilt skin or tech to make said Klit ruffle right when you high kick for Neverwinter that day... and I they shouldn't have to spend more time then that on a bop pack.

Sure some feds will belly ache on the forums for a few days when they announce it but so what... those feds don't que for FvK now... so how would it effect them anyway... I guess when they STF if they get teamed with a BOP... they won't have to watch them respawn 10x from Cube one shots.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,751
# 126
02-22-2013, 03:02 AM
i dont mind as much the kdf not getting extravagant releases, but a bone should be thrown once in a wile. that fleet qin, 5th weapon, give the sides a little parity for once.

the fleet bops actually got a hull buff as well you know, theres 2 very good choices for +1 bops, a 3rd once kdf fleets get tier 5 yards.




actually things that deal spike should be getting no buff, pressure needs a flat increase in effect. yet in the face of that need, we get the new king of spike. pay attention to in game conditions cryptic, not terrible ideas made by marketing
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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,784
# 127
02-22-2013, 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i dont mind as much the kdf not getting extravagant releases, but a bone should be thrown once in a wile. that fleet qin, 5th weapon, give the sides a little parity for once.

the fleet bops actually got a hull buff as well you know, theres 2 very good choices for +1 bops, a 3rd once kdf fleets get tier 5 yards.




actually things that deal spike should be getting no buff, pressure needs a flat increase in effect. yet in the face of that need, we get the new king of spike. pay attention to in game conditions cryptic, not terrible ideas made by marketing
Yes they are ok... I own then both...

They are OK and that is all.. they are good... they are still out classed bottom line.

Your right as well... I didn't ask for an uber spike bop... frankly the Norg is still going to be better at that with 3 Lt. Command slots.

I asked for a bop with a bit more hull and shield... (a 4th console in the tac slot won't boost spike a ton) a third rear weapon... won't help spike. They will effect presure which the bop lacks now... and the extra hull... same deal... honestly it won't even help a ton there.

However I think my point is made... I want to be able to field a team with battle cruisers and bops... where there might be an option to extend a bop and do some dmg... and not have it go POP through bleed dmg alone.

I am not asking for uber alpha.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 02-22-2013 at 03:08 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,562
# 128
02-22-2013, 03:16 AM
While I'm taking the quote below from another thread -- I think it's relevant because the OP's suggestion ignores the missing 5 Tac consoles form the KDF side :

Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsupreme79 View Post
while i still am annoyed that the feds keep getting 5 tac console ships and kdf has one, a bort which nobody uses in pvp, i disagree on the diminishing returns, there are diminishing returns on console stacking.
Right now we have what 2-3 fed escort type ships w/5 Tac consoles .
Some of these can be classified as 'light escorts' some as 'heavy escorts' .

I still want to see a KDF equivalent to both type of ships , with a BOP getting the 'light' version and a Raptor getting a 'heavy' version -- with possible variants , such as a more durable K'Vort 'heavy' BOP that looses some turn rate in exchange for an engineer-tactical console layout .
STO will be out of Beta in another 2-4 years ???
... you know after another 3 story arc remasters, crafting revamp, skills revamp, PVP upgrade ...
*note : the 2-4 year guesstimate came out of comparing Cryptic's Dev speed and that of a snail . Sadly the snail won .

Last edited by aelfwin1; 02-22-2013 at 03:22 AM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,221
# 129
02-22-2013, 03:25 AM
I want something new...I don't want another same old bop with a bit of a boost. I want a fresh ship...we haven't gotten a truly fresh, new, and original ship since before STO went f2p.

I think its about time we got something new, besides...even if this was made the Peghqu' makes it inferior and if there is ever a fleet version the Peghqu' will only be better.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,784
# 130
02-22-2013, 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aelfwin1 View Post
Right now we have what 2-3 fed escort type ships w/5 Tac consoles .
Some of these can be classified as 'light escorts' some as 'heavy escorts' .

I still want to see a KDF equivalent to both type of ships , with a BOP getting the 'light' version and a Raptor getting a 'heavy' version -- with possible variants , such as a more durable K'Vort 'heavy' BOP that looses some turn rate in exchange for an engineer-tactical console layout .
Honestly I didn't suggest a 5th console... because I am not looking for an uber striking alpha bop. Yes a 5th console on a bop... I'll admit it it would be op. As it is now we can pull off one shots with the Norg and 3 slots... we don't need 5 to juice our overload hy combos out of cloak.

What we NEED is a bop that can in fact not be a liability in a premade setup. A bop that with some minor battle cruiser support can hang long enough to not have to run 30k away all the time... and sentence the team to being down one all the time... its worse when you consider idealy you would want a sci bop as well....

Can you imagine a team of 3 Battle cruisers... 1 Pure dmg 1 Support and debuff... and 1 pure healing ... with a Sci bop + Tac Bop combo.....

Right now that team would get EATEN alive by even the worst of fed teams... because frankly the bops simply can't stay in the fight long enough. The Klink cruisers CAN be pretty good support ships... not in the healing numbers range of the Fed options... still the main issue is trying to keep a bop alive that is under fire from more then one ship is a night mare. Even if there shields are at 100% and there extended... they'll die to bleed.

As far as updating the Raptor goes... sure what ever throw a 5th console on there... no one will buy it anyway because the raptor is a complete piece of junk. Heck if there going to do a 5th console .... release a Guramba Siege Destroyer. At least its a usable ship.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
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