Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 71
02-21-2013, 11:53 AM
BC (and cloaking in general) is underrated in terms of its usefulness (it's a strong flat damage buff and a tactical advantage in PUG games, what's not to like) but overrated when it comes to how the designers originally intended it to be used. A Fed Sci captain with a decent head on his shoulders is the hardest counter to pretty much every factional KDF ship there is, it's just that FvK isn't very serious these days so you don't see many teams using the tools available to them for the game mode.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,919
# 72
02-21-2013, 11:54 AM
Oh just for anyone that isn't up to speed with what the Fleet bops are doing right now...

This is a run down on the
Fleet Ning'tao Bird-of-Prey Retrofit
Type:Raider
Hull:24,750
Shield Modifier:0.88

Crew:75

Boffs
Commander / Lt Commander / Lt Commander / LT


Turn Rate:22
Impulse Modifier:0.20
Inertia rating:70
Bonus Power:+15 weapons power
Consoles 3 3 3

This is what I asked for in my OP
Hegh'ta (Tactical Version BOP refit)
Battle Cloak
Type:Raider
Hull:28,000
Shield 0.9
Crew 100
Turn Rate:22
Impulse Modifier:0.20
Inertia rating:60
Bonus Power:+15 weapons power
Boffs.
Commander / Lt. Commander / Lt / Lt / Ensign
Consoles
4 3 3

So to sum it up I asked for
3300k in hull
0.2 extra shield mod
A boost of ONE rear weapons slot and a console (which is no more then every other ship of its class) sorry raider is BS... Bop is and always has been an escort. "Escort" is a politically correct way of saying Warship/raider... the Sisko said so.
I asked for some sort of BS console so it can be sold on the Cstore (I could give a shake if they even included a console at all)
A DOWN GRADE on the 12th boff from a Lt. Commander to an Ensign

So for asking for 3.3k hull... 0.2 shields... and a rear weapon... and saying I'll accept a drop in 2 ranks on the 12th boff ability and I'll pay you 50 bucks on top to fly it.... for that people think it seems like a crazy request? How did you people not freak out when they talked about a 5th weapons slot on a fed escort ? lol
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 02-21-2013 at 12:02 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,919
# 73
02-21-2013, 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
BC (and cloaking in general) is underrated in terms of its usefulness (it's a strong flat damage buff and a tactical advantage in PUG games, what's not to like) but overrated when it comes to how the designers originally intended it to be used. A Fed Sci captain with a decent head on his shoulders is the hardest counter to pretty much every factional KDF ship there is, it's just that FvK isn't very serious these days so you don't see many teams using the tools available to them for the game mode.
Very true... the battle cloak is fantastic for fighting pugs... the last year or so even more so.

That is part of what makes me find all the resistance to the idea of an proper bop option to be funny... a battle cloaking bop on par with a low level escort for stats WILL not be OP. There will be no uber klink premade that will show up the fed premades... it simply won't happen... perhaps they can provide some fun matches again... but frankly we can do that now with the Nogh...

and honestly the more I think about it what I asked for isn't really much better then the Nogh I am flying now... so perhaps Cryptic wouldn't get my money after all... well unless they throw in a couple Quad Dual Heavy Disruptor cannons, which is reasonable. lol
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 74
02-21-2013, 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
So for asking for 3.3k hull... 0.2 shields... and a rear weapon... and saying I'll accept a drop in 2 ranks on the 12th boff ability and I'll pay you 50 bucks on top to fly it.... for that people think it seems like a crazy request?

I wouldn't say it's crazy but I think it is exactly the line where the Fleet Norgh stopped and your proposal went over it.

3.3k hull works out to what, 4.3k total extra hull after skills?

That plus a rear weapon puts it very very close to Escort territory but with more overall advantages.



The difference with why I think we don't see players griping over the Norgh is the above, even with all of its advantages it is still a Raider design mechanically.

It gives up 1 console (vs. Fleet ships)
It gives up Escort level hull
It gives up 1 rear weapon
It's a single character unlock, with no new artwork

And in return it gets the single best BOFF layout in the entire game & retains battle cloak, high turn rate, etc.

Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,919
# 75
02-21-2013, 12:32 PM
Thats only because you are buying into the "raider" mentality that Cryptic beat into us.

You where around for launch... was the bop vs Fleet /advanced escort... really as drastic as it is now when you take... Fleet bop vs Fleet Fed ship(s)... power creep has pushed the fed escorts to a point that they are MUCH MUCH better then the bop.

The fed escorts never used to have extra consoles did they?
How about non tactical Lt. Commanders, surely not?
They never got and Turn Rate and impulse mod buffs right?
They for sure never did anything crazy like add hangers bays to them with no cost did they?

I am not trying to sound bitter on it... but really. Every NEW bop that has hit in the form of a fleet version (until the very recent buff to the Norg that puts its numbers what 8% higher then the old RA hegh that ran with the MK X launch fed escorts) has had LESS hull and LESS shields... and still they havn't added the console slots that the fed ships have simply been handed... with out even having to purchase the darn things. lol

The other side of the coin is the Science vessel take on things... the BOP Used to be the klingon science ship... really in the first year of the game the bop was the klingon sci ship... you load some extra sci on it and you do your thing... more fire power them the fed much less sci no subsystem targeting ect.... and now at this point the bop isn't even a serious consideration as far as comparing it to a fed sci ship. The only semi saviour for the the KDF is we can run the KDF version of the time ship lockbox ship... and the Orb (which the time ship replaces of course).

Honestly I still don't think dropping the stupid "Raider" title like its some licence to make sure Cryptic never has to deal with "claoking coward" QQ again... would be a good thing for the KDF. The bop is the KDFs main WARSHIP. I do wish the raptor had never made launch... cause then it wouldn't have been possible for the replacement devs 2 years ago to tag "raider" on the bop as an excuse to stop any and all power creep from effecting it.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 76
02-21-2013, 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
You where around for launch...
I wasn't. I am a cheater.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Honestly I still don't think dropping the stupid "Raider" title like its some licence to make sure Cryptic never has to deal with "claoking coward" QQ again... would be a good thing for the KDF. The bop is the KDFs main WARSHIP. I do wish the raptor had never made launch... cause then it wouldn't have been possible for the replacement devs 2 years ago to tag "raider" on the bop as an excuse to stop any and all power creep from effecting it.
What would have likely happened is that Battle cloak wouldn't have existed, turn rate would have been lower and it would have been more hull. So it would have been designed as a raptor, and called a bird of prey.


Cryptic seems to design their stealth classes in a specific way.

They even have STO counterparts for the Fed Snoozer, Escort and badguy Battle Cruiser.

Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 62
# 77
02-21-2013, 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I wouldn't say it's crazy but I think it is exactly the line where the Fleet Norgh stopped and your proposal went over it.

3.3k hull works out to what, 4.3k total extra hull after skills?

That plus a rear weapon puts it very very close to Escort territory but with more overall advantages.



The difference with why I think we don't see players griping over the Norgh is the above, even with all of its advantages it is still a Raider design mechanically.

It gives up 1 console (2 tactical consoles) (vs. Fleet ships)
It gives up Escort level hull (1/4 of the hull)
It gives up 1 rear weapon
It's a single character unlock, with no new artwork

And in return it gets the single best BOFF layout in the entire game & retains battle cloak (fleet tactical retrofit has the cloacking device), high turn rate (22 vs 17), etc.
This is comparing the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit vs the Fleet Ning'tao Bird-of-Prey Retrofit. Both are Tier III Shipyard ships.

So yes, the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit is better. However you look at it.

Last edited by alhucemas; 02-21-2013 at 01:13 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 78
02-21-2013, 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I wouldn't say it's crazy but I think it is exactly the line where the Fleet Norgh stopped and your proposal went over it.
First of all, I refuse to believe that the Fleet Norgh ever got it's own debate at Cryptic over the recent buff. I think it got caught up in a batch of updated hulls and shields. So I don't think the line where the Florgh stopped was chosen with malice aforethought.

Regardless, what crosses the line is a $50 Zen infusion. IMO it's still a pretty modest request when held up against the Kumari.

Still, I bought the Bortasqu bundle mostly out of KDF solidarity. I'd probably buy this if it came with nothing more than a painstick emote for the same reasons.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 43
# 79
02-21-2013, 03:39 PM
IDK if it'd be an answer to the new escort but I'd love to see 3 new BoPs.

Drop the all uni for all of them. Give'm fixed slots with maybe a Lt.C uni, maybe an Ensign uni. That way you can give them better shields/hull and another console.

Tac version is a base line, Engy has better hull no bc and turns slower, theirs your Kvort some sort of strange hybrid BoP/healer. Sci has better shields no bc turns better then Engy slower than Tac. 4 consoles for the main role, 3 and 2 to round it out. I dont need 10, but thats me.

I'd even consider giving the sci version typical sci stuff, sub targeting 3/3 weapons that sort of thing, 4/4 for the engy version. New escort, weird light cruiser and sci ship for kdf and yet all iconic bird of prey design.

Think it'd be cool, but I doubt it would happen, ever. Wishful thinking I guess.
Koopa27 -X-treme
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 461
# 80
02-21-2013, 03:53 PM
Right now the KDF's answer to the Kumari is a shuttle.

Actually, strike that. A shuttle is overpowered by comparison.
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