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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,706
# 11
02-22-2013, 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradstudent1 View Post
Thanks for your ongoing contributions to this conversation, Havam. A few responses:

1) I agree that Danubes have to be part of this conversation. But that wasn't the point of this test. But if anyone wants to do such a test with Danubes, I will gladly jump into the conversation.

2) I am not sure this is an attempt to nerf science, Havam. Your comment assumes that power drain is the realm of science alone, when in fact, hangar pets can be found on escorts too, as you well know. And if we have shown anything it is that the siphons--which can be slotted by any ship with a hangar (not limited to science ships)--are the most powerful drain power in the game. So in my view this is not an attack on science but rather on power drain, which transcends science.
But the KDF doesn't have various ships of every class that can equip pets. If pets are a problem in a team setting, this is no minor issue.

Siphons are the most powerful drain, just as much as danoobs are the most powerful tractor beam. They dish out free TB2 at a rate that no ship could ever do. It is no accident that both are sci powers. Everytime Systems gives away an uberversion of a sci power to any Federation ship and class combo possible, we are nerfing sci.

So to reiterate one more time. Siphons drain is fine. The design flaw lies with pets as debuff platforms, nothing special about siphons that singles them out.

Slavers are better at draining anyways. Who cares if you go boom with 1,2 or 3 subsytmems not disabled. They are much harder to outrun as well. Maybe polaron procs need another pass, to bring them in line with tets, and plasma?
Joined 06.10
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PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 02-22-2013 at 09:22 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,483
# 12
02-22-2013, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradstudent1 View Post
Thanks for your ongoing contributions to this conversation, Havam. A few responses:

1) I agree that Danubes have to be part of this conversation. But that wasn't the point of this test. But if anyone wants to do such a test with Danubes, I will gladly jump into the conversation.

2) I am not sure this is an attempt to nerf science, Havam. Your comment assumes that power drain is the realm of science alone, when in fact, hangar pets can be found on escorts too, as you well know. And if we have shown anything it is that the siphons--which can be slotted by any ship with a hangar (not limited to science ships)--are the most powerful drain power in the game. So in my view this is not an attack on science but rather on power drain, which transcends science.
Are you sure the new Jem escorts can use these pets? One of the complaints I've seen is the lack of KDF pets that can be used by them. Also, there's far more Fed ship options for using pets than on the KDF side which are slow for KDF ships.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 13
02-22-2013, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Are you sure the new Jem escorts can use these pets? One of the complaints I've seen is the lack of KDF pets that can be used by them. Also, there's far more Fed ship options for using pets than on the KDF side which are slow for KDF ships.
I don't know about the Jem Heavy Escort Carrier. I don't actually have one. Can anyone confirm whether this ship can slot siphons? If not, then I need to redact my response to Havam above.

@gradstudent1
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Captain
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# 14
02-22-2013, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
[color="SeaGreen"]But the KDF doesn't have various ships of every class that can equip pets. If pets are a problem in a team setting, this is no minor issue.

So to reiterate one more time. Siphons drain is fine. The design flaw lies with pets as debuff platforms, nothing special about siphons that singles them out.
I don't entirely follow this comment. You have an issue with pets as debuff platforms but not with siphons, which are pets with a particularly powerful debuff? Or perhaps you just mean that you have an issue with the whole category and that we should not single out siphons as any more of a problem?

@gradstudent1
PvP Boot Camp Project Leader Emeritus
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,706
# 15
02-22-2013, 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradstudent1 View Post
Or perhaps you just mean that you have an issue with the whole category and that we should not single out siphons as any more of a problem?
Thats the one.

Last i checked heavy bug couldn't equip siphons, No clue if that was patched. even if, the point remains that natively feds have more ships with hangars then the kdf across the board.

By having this discussion about "siphons" we achieve three things, none of which I'm fond of:

1) pets as debuff platforms doesn't get addressed, just one pet nerfed.
2) we talk about a kdf exclusive, ignoring the blatantly obvious FED counter example, pushing balance even further towards feds.
3) we are devaluing sci powers. The calls for higher sci resists are already in. We need to move in the opposite direction. How can drain builds be effective without pets, is what we should have in mind. Not how nerfing siphons, will make SPs least favorite KDF premade more vulnerable.

Joined 06.10
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# 16
02-22-2013, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
Thats the one.

Last i checked heavy bug couldn't equip siphons, No clue if that was patched. even if, the point remains that natively feds have more ships with hangars then the kdf across the board.

By having this discussion about "siphons" we achieve three things, none of which I'm fond of:

1) pets as debuff platforms doesn't get addressed, just one pet nerfed.
2) we talk about a kdf exclusive, ignoring the blatantly obvious FED counter example, pushing balance even further towards feds.
3) we are devaluing sci powers. The calls for higher sci resists are already in. We need to move in the opposite direction. How can drain builds be effective without pets, is what we should have in mind. Not how nerfing siphons, will make SPs least favorite KDF premade more vulnerable.

Let me respond to each of your points:

1) I disagree. YOU in particular have made sure that pets as debuff DOES get addressed.=) For that I am grateful.
2) The Fed counter example has never been ignored. Again, you have brought it up on multiple occasions and I have agreed with you that they are a problem.
3) Note that the title of this thread is "Energy Siphon/Power Drain," not just "Energy Siphon." And the proper question is not just, "How can drain builds be effecitve without pets," but rather "How can drain builds be effective and fair without pets?"

To reitierate a point, in the conclusion to this post, I say the following:

I conclude with one suggestion to the developers: Don?t just place a cap on siphon drones and leach. This is to fixate, as I originally did, on one branch, not the larger tree. Rather, place a cap on power drain in general. A fundamental question needs to be asked: Should a single player be able to bring one ship down to 0 power in all 4 subsystems? This is especially a problem since the ability to do this belongs to one faction only (KDF). What if multiple power drain ships and esp. carriers are running on that team? The recent fix to siphon drones and leach console was a move in the right direction, but I fear that it was trimming the weeds more than an actually dealing with the infestation.


This paragraph should indiciate to you that I am not only interested in fixing siphons but the whole power drain dynamic. I am really glad we are having this conversation, but please recognize that it has gone far beyond just a discussion of siphons. THanks to you (and I mean this genuinely), the conversation is much more broadly about (1) pets as debuff and (2) power drain in general.

@gradstudent1
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,706
# 17
02-22-2013, 10:01 AM
Great then lets hope that any fixes that systems might cook up: Buff drain from ES and Tykens, maybe nerf polarons, and cap the contributions of leech, AA, and siphons without rendering the synergy useless.

Also let's hope that when this imaginary patch goes live, pets across the board receive a big nerf in the debuff department. I somehow doubt this, though. Siphon nerf might or might not come, but pet spam balancing...... i doubt it. That would require serious work from systems. I m afraid that nerfing siphons is to quick n easy a patch to appease the forums.


I still can't help to feel that there are soo many more pressing balance issues on the list. Should a coordinated team be able to disable your movement, yes. Should a coordinated team be able to drain your power, yes. We all know that 10 or 0 in all four subystems makes little difference, except for the illusion of being in control of your ship.
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# 18
02-22-2013, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
Great then lets hope that any fixes that systems might cook up: Buff drain from ES and Tykens, maybe nerf polarons, and cap the contributions of leech, AA, and siphons without rendering the synergy useless.

Also let's hope that when this imaginary patch goes live, pets across the board receive a big nerf in the debuff department. I somehow doubt this, though. Siphon nerf might or might not come, but pet spam balancing...... i doubt it. That would require serious work from systems. I m afraid that nerfing siphons is to quick n easy a patch to appease the forums.


I still can't help to feel that there are soo many more pressing balance issues on the list. Should a coordinated team be able to disable your movement, yes. Should a coordinated team be able to drain your power, yes. We all know that 10 or 0 in all four subystems makes little difference, except for the illusion of being in control of your ship.
Agreed on all points but one. Whether on Fed (Danubes) or KDF (siphons), disabling a player on a semi-permanent basis doesn't really require a "coordinated team." We were able to recreate these effects with a single player. This is part of the problem. If more great skill were invovled to actually deploy these problematic items, then we might not be discussing them as often.

@gradstudent1
PvP Boot Camp Project Leader Emeritus
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,706
# 19
02-22-2013, 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradstudent1 View Post
Agreed on all points but one. Whether on Fed (Danubes) or KDF (siphons), disabling a player on a semi-permanent basis doesn't really require a "coordinated team." We were able to recreate these effects with a single player. This is part of the problem. If more great skill were invovled to actually deploy these problematic items, then we might not be discussing them as often.
You missed the "should" in there. I have no problem with 5xTB2 nailing you to the virtual space concrete.

I agree, Pets doing this for free without opportunity cost, is Gecko at its finest. And many more impolite words come to my mind to describe this situation that I can't post here since its an english language forum.

BTW i would be more then happy, to test a 1v1 Vesta with phaser procs, VM, 2x tractor beams, chroniton torp/mines, and danubes. Let's see if this disabels a player long enough to go boom.
Joined 06.10
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# 20
02-22-2013, 10:13 AM
So back to my points on the previous post about this as I can't on the net apart from my phone

How long did it actually take to shut a player down to those power levels in a battle situation?

Great work carrying out these tests good job
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====----
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