Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,616
# 41
02-26-2013, 08:31 AM
When Perpetual lost STO, by their own admission they had more done on Gods and Heroes than STO. They put another year or so into G&H and then folded entirely, at which point Heatwave picked up G&H... Which turned out to be a mocked up rendering engine and concept art - it was basically at the point where most games are announced, not when they're delayed two years past their initial release date.


Perpetual appears to have accomplished nothing in its existence except burn through investment capital. The fact that both of their games managed to come into existence is owed entirely to other developers using other engines and creating their own assets.

So, yeah, their game would have been awesome... In the same way that the Phantom would have been a better video game console than anything in its generation or since. Similarity being that neither one ever actually existed and was never going to.

Last edited by hevach; 02-26-2013 at 08:33 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,651
# 42
02-26-2013, 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by commanderkassy View Post
Naw. Vision yes, but actually accomplishing anything? Maybe after 10 years.
I'd rather have what we have than having the game end up like the Duke Nukem Forever of MMOs...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 535
# 43
02-26-2013, 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purplegamer View Post
So STO was doomed to be rushed either way. That's very unfortunate. What was the mentality behind the short cycle? Were investors that anxious for a return? Was CBS? Did Star Trek 2009 have something to do with it?

I'm just curious why you guys were held to an impossible deadline when it would have made sense to extend development to give you all time to iterate. I find it hard to believe that no one during the process raised their hand and said, "Maybe releasing an unfinished product that we'll have to patch and fill in holes is not such a good idea. Please give us more time to deliver a quality experience that will put us in a better position to expand upon."
It had everything to do with it. Both the game and the movie were supposed to drop at nearly the same time. They tie together, with JJ carrying on the new timeline a la "Back to the Future" style (seriously, the scene on the bridge in the movie is the Trek version of Doc Brown with a chalkboard while screaming at the top of his lungs about the time line skewing off on a tangent) and the game continuing on in the prime time line with Romulus destroyed.

It would have worked out nicely and wouldn't have been a rush job as Perpetual had plenty of time, at least 5 years, to develop the game. We all know how that worked out..... I am glad Cryptic took it over because MMO's have changed since then. Perpetual didn't survive anyway, and after the initial boost of releasing STO, they would have probably folded anyway and we wouldn't have STO.

I have to give it to Cryptic on adapting to today's MMO market like they do. This game continues to make it through one painful transition after another, all self inflicted by the rushed dev time. It just seems awful because the community is so vocal and a bunch of cry babies. MMO = grind, Life = grind, MMO ~ Fake life... Life rarely gives you a whole bunch of stuff for nothing... and an MMO is a representation of the life of a toon... so why should the game not be the same?

And about the concept art... concept art ALWAYS looks amazing... look at the concept art done by Cryptic. Look at the Vulcan chick with the huge boobs on the front page..... Concept art is supposed to make you go "wow" as it's there to sell you on the game. Just because Perpetual released some gorgeous concept art, doesn't mean it would look that good in the game. Don't dwell on it too hard.
1hr of work @NYS Min Wage 7.25 = 725 Zen
725 x 102 (or current exchange rate) DL = 73950 DL <- can you earn that per hour in game?

Join Date: Sep 2009 - I want my changeling lava lamp!
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 10
# 44
02-26-2013, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacofangs View Post
I was not on the project at launch, and I never worked at Perpetual, but yes, my understanding is that Perpetual had a contract to put the game out by sometime in 2009. When it was obvious they were going belly up, CBS offered the license up for grabs, but under the condition that whoever picked it up had the same deadline that Perpetual always had. Of course we asked for extensions and such, and we did get a short extension, but that was it.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10...rnaround-time/
http://www.tentonhammer.com/sto/news...road-to-launch

My point is that while Perpetual made some beautiful concept art, there was no game there. People who talk about how great a hypothetical Perpetual version of STO would have been are fooling themselves. If Cryptic had not picked up STO where it lay, and carried it the short distance we were told, there would be no STO.
Indeed, I think you guys at Cryptic Studios have done an awesome job at making STO come to life from Perpetuals original concepts and continuing making the game better and better with each new update, like I said in my last post here I do like some of the ideas and art the Perpetual had, but I also like a lot of the concept art done by Cryptic such as the New Romulus art and ideas such as being the Captain from the start instead of grinding up the ranks to get there, and in the end all we had got out of Perpetual was art and other ideas, good art and ideas, but just that, which some have been brought into STO anyway like the Aquarius Escort, so I for one am glad Cryptic took on STO and even more happy to see it flourishing after 3 years and continuing still, great job guys.
Never Bring A D'k Tahg To A Phaser Fight!
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 989
# 45
02-26-2013, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomeight View Post
It had everything to do with it. Both the game and the movie were supposed to drop at nearly the same time. They tie together, with JJ carrying on the new timeline a la "Back to the Future" style (seriously, the scene on the bridge in the movie is the Trek version of Doc Brown with a chalkboard while screaming at the top of his lungs about the time line skewing off on a tangent) and the game continuing on in the prime time line with Romulus destroyed.

It would have worked out nicely and wouldn't have been a rush job as Perpetual had plenty of time, at least 5 years, to develop the game. We all know how that worked out..... I am glad Cryptic took it over because MMO's have changed since then. Perpetual didn't survive anyway, and after the initial boost of releasing STO, they would have probably folded anyway and we wouldn't have STO.

I have to give it to Cryptic on adapting to today's MMO market like they do. This game continues to make it through one painful transition after another, all self inflicted by the rushed dev time. It just seems awful because the community is so vocal and a bunch of cry babies. MMO = grind, Life = grind, MMO ~ Fake life... Life rarely gives you a whole bunch of stuff for nothing... and an MMO is a representation of the life of a toon... so why should the game not be the same?

And about the concept art... concept art ALWAYS looks amazing... look at the concept art done by Cryptic. Look at the Vulcan chick with the huge boobs on the front page..... Concept art is supposed to make you go "wow" as it's there to sell you on the game. Just because Perpetual released some gorgeous concept art, doesn't mean it would look that good in the game. Don't dwell on it too hard.
I "ooh and awe" over the concept art from Perpetual because their vision--or concept--for the game as a whole is far more in line with MMOs I enjoy. The Cryptic-adapted game is closer to a themepark experience (which is why we always seem to be reaching for new content to satisfy us) and less of the sandbox Perpetual was claiming to be working toward. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's just not the game I started following and got excited about.

And we have different understandings as to the purpose of concept art, so I'm just going to disagree with you there that it's meant to sell you on the game. Concept art isn't for players, it's for developers.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 989
# 46
02-26-2013, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacofangs View Post
I was not on the project at launch, and I never worked at Perpetual, but yes, my understanding is that Perpetual had a contract to put the game out by sometime in 2009. When it was obvious they were going belly up, CBS offered the license up for grabs, but under the condition that whoever picked it up had the same deadline that Perpetual always had. Of course we asked for extensions and such, and we did get a short extension, but that was it.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10...rnaround-time/
http://www.tentonhammer.com/sto/news...road-to-launch

My point is that while Perpetual made some beautiful concept art, there was no game there. People who talk about how great a hypothetical Perpetual version of STO would have been are fooling themselves. If Cryptic had not picked up STO where it lay, and carried it the short distance we were told, there would be no STO.
Thanks for the links, Taco. Insightful stuff.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,066
# 47
02-26-2013, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purplegamer View Post
And we have different understandings as to the purpose of concept art, so I'm just going to disagree with you there that it's meant to sell you on the game. Concept art isn't for players, it's for developers.

Concept has many uses. Both of the above ideas are correct.
The basis of concept art is to convey the idea to the production artist, so they can create final assets in line with that. You do concept art because it's far faster/cheaper/easier to make sweeping changes in a 2d painting, than it is once you start building things.

However, what we production artists need to do our job is not finished beautiful paintings. 'Concept' is the keyword. It needs to convey the concept, and little else. Sometimes big beautiful paintings are helpful for setting the mood, or conveying the overall idea, but most of the time, when we're making something, a quick doodle, or a black & white shape study will be enough to get us going.

'Finished' beauty paintings like much of Perpetual's stuff are used to convince the non-artists. Artists can see past WIP and envision a finished product. CEOs, Customers, Players, and Investors, usually have a harder time with that. So, you do pretty versions to show all of them.
-The Artist formerly known as Tumerboy



Quote:
Originally Posted by mightybobcnc View Post
Tacofangs, what is your beef with where's Sulu?
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 473
# 48
02-26-2013, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacofangs View Post
I was not on the project at launch, and I never worked at Perpetual, but yes, my understanding is that Perpetual had a contract to put the game out by sometime in 2009. When it was obvious they were going belly up, CBS offered the license up for grabs, but under the condition that whoever picked it up had the same deadline that Perpetual always had. Of course we asked for extensions and such, and we did get a short extension, but that was it.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10...rnaround-time/
http://www.tentonhammer.com/sto/news...road-to-launch

My point is that while Perpetual made some beautiful concept art, there was no game there. People who talk about how great a hypothetical Perpetual version of STO would have been are fooling themselves. If Cryptic had not picked up STO where it lay, and carried it the short distance we were told, there would be no STO.
After three years, the game STILL suffers from its extremely premature release... You can still see the scars. KDF starting at lvl 20, bad crafting, worse PvP etc.
STOWiki admin.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 989
# 49
02-26-2013, 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacofangs View Post
Concept has many uses. Both of the above ideas are correct.
The basis of concept art is to convey the idea to the production artist, so they can create final assets in line with that. You do concept art because it's far faster/cheaper/easier to make sweeping changes in a 2d painting, than it is once you start building things.

However, what we production artists need to do our job is not finished beautiful paintings. 'Concept' is the keyword. It needs to convey the concept, and little else. Sometimes big beautiful paintings are helpful for setting the mood, or conveying the overall idea, but most of the time, when we're making something, a quick doodle, or a black & white shape study will be enough to get us going.

'Finished' beauty paintings like much of Perpetual's stuff are used to convince the non-artists. Artists can see past WIP and envision a finished product. CEOs, Customers, Players, and Investors, usually have a harder time with that. So, you do pretty versions to show all of them.
Got ya. Do many concept pieces get "prettified" for the audience? Or are there concepts made specifically for consumers, too?
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,066
# 50
02-26-2013, 12:44 PM
There usually aren't concepts made specifically for players. Generally they're made for production, but might be prettied up more than they would be for us, so they're presentable online, etc.
-The Artist formerly known as Tumerboy



Quote:
Originally Posted by mightybobcnc View Post
Tacofangs, what is your beef with where's Sulu?
Reply

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