Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 232
# 51
02-26-2013, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
As far as I know, while they may have longterm aims for very ROUGH PvP and PvE balance, Cryptic has no intention to EVER offer equal access to specific gear, builds, or C-Store offerings and has indicated pretty clearly that they do not seek to provide the KDF with equality in this regard unless sales on existing KDF C-Store items go up.

They MIGHT be open to a special preorder system for KDF but KDF will probably never be given equal C-Store access and devs have specifically and repeatedly reaffirmed that KDF C-Store ships will probably not be added to the game. That doesn't mean KDF ships won't ever be added but it does mean that only the Federation will likely get C-Store ships in the foreseeable future.
Yup this is what happens when you design a game around moneygrabbing and not game integrity. what a pathetic company.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,747
# 52
02-26-2013, 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsupreme79 View Post
Yup this is what happens when you design a game around moneygrabbing and not game integrity. what a pathetic company.
As a kdf you don't get bothered by new shineys that you will pay 50$, play for a week, and discard. Kdf play for free since cryptic really doesn't want our money
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,139
# 53
02-26-2013, 11:27 AM
Its 90% money and 10% morales, good faith will only get you so far.

The thing is cryptic knows all your secrets.
The know that PvE Fed players make up X% and pay out $X/month on average, everything else doesn't look as profitable.

When they take a look at KDF players and both the % and average pay out is very low, the long term goals of that faction take a back seat. If the KDF players were some rich population segment you'd have seen work being done on it. Just like all "evil" factions of games the KDF is made up of more hardcore players, players more likely to earn their in game currencies and not ever have to spend real money.

PvP is little different, even if it was fixed, it will still be a minority. The PvPers are still a tiny percent and will remain small in this game, they may spend more money than an avg KDF per month to keep up with gear trends, but they don't go out and buy ships that aren't going to be an edge.

I really hope the KDF gets finished, but in its current state it doesn't deserve to get more ships, that is just throwing money away. Fix the foundation and then they can talk.
Delirium Tremens
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 748
# 54
02-26-2013, 11:35 AM
I'll back Roach on that one. The fleet I and my friends created here in STO existed before STO ever released. When STO launched we all busted buns to get to the point where we could unlock KDF characters. We very quickly were able to get out KDF fleet started with over 25 players.. By the end of the first year of STO we were down to around 5 active players. We're hoping we can get some more of our old guard to come back come May and what ever the new content for the KDF is.

If the KDF faction had been more complete before now KDF C-store ship would have sold better. One of the OTHER reasons they didn't sell so well had to do with the massive number of stock ships the KDF DID NOT have to begin with. Along with the total lack of ships costumes.

Many of us felt then, and still feel today that this was an utter slap in the face to we as fans and gamers. I am utterly certain that a much higher percentage of the KDF identified player base popped for Life time subs then the Fed base (higher percentage, not nessecarily higher numbers). We made our dedication clear early on, and what what we got was.."here's some lovely ships, just give us more money..."

Are any of you getting this? As far as we KDF types are concerned Cryptic NOT making the money it expected off of the KDF faction in the sale of C-store ships is entirely cryptic problem for not putting the effort into fleshing out the KDF faction to begin with. The studio, specificly mister Stahl esentially saying then that it was the player base's fault...

................... not very politic to say the very least. Flat insulting to speak clearly of it. They say trek fans are passionate. It could be said that Klingon centric Trek fans are even more so. KDF players have been quite clear, specific, and pointed in these forums about what the factions need for the last three years. Up to the point of being flat insulting about it.

Fairs is fair. You reap what you sow. We've gotten discounted, ignored and insulted time and time again as a group. Not just by the studio, but by other players. People who would not dare to do so to our face, but will happily engage in such petty childish garbage on an internet forum where there is little or no risk of backlash for thier cowardly, low, and discriminitory behavior. Behavior that is about as far from the spirit of Trek as you can get.

It may be "jollies" for them, but it's fairly serious to us.

All the KDF player base has really ever asked for is fair and equal treatment. What we have recieved is decidedly less. And yet we are still here. Still fighting and arguing for our fair share, even for those that refuse to post in these forums, or even play STO anymore because they HAVE BEEN SO BADLY ABUSED.

We, the KDF players are damd tired of being bullied simply because we have a different view of the Trek universe. STO is a commercial product. We want our monies worth. We want what we were told 3 plus years ago we were going to recieve, and that good many of us had all ready paid IN ADVANCE for.

Like many of my fellow KDF players I do not resent the Federation player base (as a whole.. there are some indeviduals however) or what they have recieved from this product. I do however resnt strongly, and have every right to resent strongly how the KDF faction has been handled, and how I and my fellow KDF players have been treated.

I am not alone.

We are out numbered more then 5 to 1. In PvP KDF players have managed to more then hold thier own. In spite of having our ships nerfed time and again. In spite of the Federation faction getting the bulk of the thoreticly better ships under the game system. In spite of anything that might be seen as a KDF advantage being whined and decried about in these very forums, with no thought given to the existing Federation faction advantages. In spite of having what we were told we remain KDF exclusives stripped away from us bit by bit. Universal BOFFS, Cloaks, Carrier ships.

I am waiting untill this May, and a great many of the hard core KDF players are waiting untill May. And if we don't see a tutorial, and levelling content, and some additional content beyond level 20, and the ability of a new player to start play as a KDF character it is going to be an issue. Some additional ship skins, and ships plus some additional character costumes are desired. But the ability of a player to start as KDF, and level up is THE single most important item to the KDF faction. Without it, the faction is unlikely to grow, and with out that growth, any thought of future faction based PvP growth is a dead horse. Without it and thought of adding additional factions is a pretty much a dead issue.


I was asked many month back to tone it down on the forums by several of my fellow KDF players in my fleet. I did so. But I want to make it clear.. If the KDF faction doesn't get what it NEEDS to prompt growth of the faction come this May/June, I'm liely to just up and go find somewhere else to spend my money and gamer dollars. And I will without any doubt what so ever be not alone. The KDF faction is more likely at this point above the 25% of the player base mark as there has been some growth in the faction over the last year.

Can STO survive a sudden loss of 10% of its player base which is what I am predicting will happen if the KDF players are discounted again? It likely can. Can it survive the loss of the now dissapointed PvP players that will follow because the bulk of the hard core player of the "Bad Guy" faction finally decided that had sufficent dissapointment and left?
Possibly.
Can it survive what will be the start of players exitting the game and not returning? Oh Sure, after all, Champions online is still there.. and Neverwinter is about to release.

Though how well yet another fantasy/Medieval MMO in a market allready flooded with Fantasy/Medieval MMO's is going to to do is problematic at best. Cryptic studio's reputation may have a great deal on how well Neverwinter is recieved.. and dissapointed players from another Cryptic title making an exodus elsewhere is going to effect that product.

Nothing happens in isolation. You cannot insulate ones self, or ones company, and products from the effects of bad decisions. The number of game studio's and producers that fill the list of "once were movers and shakers" is legion. And it grows longer every year, as yet another corporate entity or company, or studio falls into the dustbin and effectivly dissapears.

I generally have a great deal to say in my posts on these forums. I apologize for the length of them. Part of the reason they are often long is I do not assume that the reader always know the subject. I also often try my best to disabuse my fellow gamers of wishfull thinking, muddied logic and expectations, and lastly mis-conceptions.

STO is a game. A Product. But its one based apon an intellectual property that has effect the way western culture and civilization has viewed its self for most of half a century. I watched Star Trek in Germany as a little kid on armed forced television on a tiny 13" black and white. My family bought a color TV just so we could watch the reruns in color after we returned to the US in the late 60's and into the 70's. I've seen how Trek has changed our view of our selves and our world. How its inspired technologies we take for granted today from communications, to medicine, to areospace science and engineering, to Physics and more. Much much more. And damd right I'm passionate about it, and I make no excuse or apology for it. It is what it is.

Daniel Stahl... do it right. And do it the KDF faction the justice it truely deserves.. and like it or not.. the clock is ticking. Time is always the most precious of resources. Don't blow this by discounting in any way that "18%" of your player base. That there will be repercssions is not a threat. Its a fact waiting to happen, and one that is nigh inevitable. And its one your company will pay the price of, and may well end up being unrecoverable from. It's happened to other companies. You may well not get the luxury of time to recover from the accumulated errors and miss-decisions this time around assuming dissapointment happens. Don't let it happen. Better to spend the resources while you have them. A day late and dollar short could be a long term job killer.

Khemaraa Iron Hand sends
Release 8.5 "STO The Next Generation"

Let the happy old bug stomping commence, along with refinement toward enhancing each factions play experience!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,115
# 55
02-26-2013, 11:48 AM
Amen to that Khemaraa , you are bang on the mark. The general consensus of a lot of KDF players on the forums is basically ''yeah right '' or ''I will believe it when I see it'' in regards to the so called May update, and the devs should be asking themselves why so many people have that attitude.

In regards to people leaving I feel your pain there, I joined a fleet , the Kutluch back when the game was newly made and we had about 30+ active people every day. Now I see maybe 2 of them log on now and again. We went from a active fleet partaking in PvP , most of us got the XP to level from PvP as this was before a lot of the repeatable missions or any of the story missions beyond the old tutorial which was extremely basic.
We went from a active and good community of people doing STFs and PvP but one by one the people got sick of the empty promises and the nerfs and the general attitude of kick the KDF in the balls because of complaints of inequality.

Never have I seen such poor and open disrespect from a development team to a entire faction of the player base, even in games that are widely rated as poor like Star Wars Galaxies, SOE at least treated their factions equally with respect.

its a shame really, if they made a effort then the KDF could be a very good viable money maker for Cryptic but them not being able to look past the Federation moneyball has blinded them to that. Newsflash devs people are not going to spend money on stuff that is useless, broken or not there, only you have the power to change that though I truly doubt you will.
toDuj 'oS rol.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 956
# 56
02-26-2013, 12:14 PM
**WARNING! Opinion**

If the kdf 3 pack bombed it was probably because for the most part, the bortas bombed :/

Fed turn rate (bad for cannons
only vaugley interesting boff layout
gimicky consoles (small dps burst, move something infront of you then watch it move away again, or plop out a bop)
Ugly as a brick in space (sorry to whoever made it!)

And one of the biggest turn offs for me was the fact it didnt get the benefit of the quantum slipsteam drive enhancer :/ there was no reason to keep that from the KDF, it was non combat and would have made moving around the sector maps a bit easier :/

** Opinion over**
Your Heavy Graviton Beam deals 26470 (10583) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 748
# 57
02-26-2013, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elandarksky View Post
**WARNING! Opinion**

If the kdf 3 pack bombed it was probably because for the most part, the bortas bombed :/

Fed turn rate (bad for cannons
only vaugley interesting boff layout
gimicky consoles (small dps burst, move something infront of you then watch it move away again, or plop out a bop)
Ugly as a brick in space (sorry to whoever made it!)

And one of the biggest turn offs for me was the fact it didnt get the benefit of the quantum slipsteam drive enhancer :/ there was no reason to keep that from the KDF, it was non combat and would have made moving around the sector maps a bit easier :/

** Opinion over**

The Bortas 3 pack failed for exactly those reasons... It was simply a bad ship for the KDF.

If the other KDF ships on the C-store haven't sold well I can think of any number of reasons for that.

1. Most are not Klingon ships...they're Gorn, Orion, and Nausican. Lovely ships in many way, but they are not Klingon.
2. Only the barest handfull are Tier-5 which is where you should be getting the majority of your sales.

..now, just as a note since the addition of fleet ships.. IF you have a C-store version of a fleet ship that you own you do get a substancial discount on the fleet version of the hull (generally 1 fleet ship module required instead of 4, and I think a little bit less fleet credits besides)

But that discount is not going to drive C-store sales unless a player has a lot of alt characters.. its just not worth it other wise.. It might be a shock, but citizens of the Klingon Empire are taught mathamatics! The majority of STO players are not going to be running a massive number of alts. Thats just the way it is.

... on another note.. if you can level a character from start on the KDF side to level cap in a two or three days of solid play why in the world you want to spend money on tier 3 and 4 ships out of the C-store? Boggles the mind that I'm expected to belive the propwash about poor KDF ship sales when the very way the game is put together NEGITIVLY IMPACTS those same ship sales... or in other owrds, the excuse does not wash. Lets also add that over the long term, the work to create those models and ships is still going to not only pay for its self but show a nice little profit as you amoratize the cost of creating the content over time...

A first year economics and business student at a community college taking accounting would be able to point out the error that the studio made. I've owned a business and its screamingly obvious to me, and I pointed it out in these forums back when those ships were added.

Ships are a value added product, as are character uniforms, and everything else in the Zen store. They are NOT content. Content is what you play through. Eventually the studio is going to run out of idea's on value added products, which includes lock boxes (loks to be fairly soon at this point). When that happens the game is going to need content to survive. And I can with no reservations what so ever guarentee that UGC content will be insufficent to keep this MMO profitable.

You can add another faction, but that will require a dedicated sub team of people working almost exclusivly for at least a year, with everyone else on the dev team pitching in where needed just to make it happen. Every time you add more mini games to the main game (rep systrems, DOFF's etc) you increase the amount of work that will be needed for any additional faction. Of all the proposed added faction the only place the studio could possible get away with a partial faction would be the concept of a civian (primarily role play) faction.

Ok, I'm wandering off subject again.. I do that often.. so, lets end this post.

Khemaraa sends
Release 8.5 "STO The Next Generation"

Let the happy old bug stomping commence, along with refinement toward enhancing each factions play experience!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 76
# 58
02-26-2013, 02:18 PM
Cryptic should give a try with the KDF tactical 3 ship pack. If KDF players still don't pay money, finished or not the KDF faction, KDF players are a bad bussines, that is all.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,667
# 59
02-26-2013, 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldkhemaraa View Post
The Bortas 3 pack failed for exactly those reasons... It was simply a bad ship for the KDF.

If the other KDF ships on the C-store haven't sold well I can think of any number of reasons for that.

1. Most are not Klingon ships...they're Gorn, Orion, and Nausican. Lovely ships in many way, but they are not Klingon.
2. Only the barest handfull are Tier-5 which is where you should be getting the majority of your sales.

Khemaraa sends
I bought myself a gauramba. I think the Nausicaan ships are some of the best looking anywhere in the game. I've been looking at the fleet destroyers, spending 1000zen to buy a low-level one and saving 1500 zen on the purchase cost of a fleet version is a net savings of 500zen. So that's not so bad. Or 1500zen for the low level version is a wash but you get the low-level one for any alts so slightly better than buying only the fleet version for one character and since I have three KDFs and might make more I might end up saving a ton of money if more than one wants the same fleet ship.

But the bortas are cruisers. In the state the game has been for the last year or so... honestly, who is going to spend money on a cruiser?

Regardless of the borta stats console or looks, this was the biggest mistake: they are cruisers in a game that punishes you for flying a cruiser.

Also, I want the To'Duj to have a reason to buy it like the fed fighters do (quad cannons, anything at all, I don't care just give it something I can move to another craft), and give us the Orion Slaver as a fighter for 500 zen (art for it is already in the game should be simple to just make stats) because it is the only small craft that uses mines instead of torpedoes. Then give us a small craft with a stealth console. Mostly so I can cloak my Orion and Nausicaan ships. Those would sell. Even at 500zen a pop I guarantee those would sell.

Last edited by gavinruneblade; 02-26-2013 at 02:31 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 748
# 60
02-26-2013, 04:00 PM
the big question is from a financial standpoint will they sell 'nuff of them? Players with active characters in the faction are whats going to drive sales. More players in the faction means more sales. If you don't have the foundation for the products demand, then you have insufficient demand, and insufficient sales. That is not the customers fault. Thats poor planning on the part the provider of the product. Cryptic missread demand before, and then proceeded to sluff the blame off on 18% of its customer base when they over produced value added products.

On the other hand, I don't belive the "we lost money" argument that Cryptic has popped out. My real world experience say otherwise. Creating ships for the game are a one time expense that involves not only the Artist creating the 3D model, and any varients of it, including the skins on the model, but plugging a for sale model into the zen store in game, on the web site, and integrating it into the ships yards UI, and a few other reasonable but important odds and ends (including systems integration for ship special abilities/power and any added console).

Like any business you amoratize over time R&D, and production costs. Cryptic didn't loose a penny on the previous KDF ships in the cryptic/zen store. Thats because they were a very very very premature release. Over time, assuming they get the KDF faction up to speed, they will make every penny back and then some. The issue in reality was an insufficent foundation to drive product sales. This is basic stuff. Cryptic may know how to make a game, but the industry is rife with skilled people that know how to make a product but are no where near as knowledge on how to make MONEY off the product. And that has been by far the area that Cryptic studio's has been the weakest in.

Cryptic could really use a marketting guru to look over thier product release plans and planning just to say now and again. "Why are you doing this now? There is insufficent demand to generate revenue to support doing this."

Almost 2 years ago when the first of those new KDF ships were added in that players could buy it was noted by many posts that the ships were nice and all that but content would have been better. We were told that ships were content. I suspect that since then we have managed to somewhat educate the studio in what WE consider as content, and what we do not consider content. What the customer belives and percieves is what is what drives sales. The art of the sale is convincing the custumer to sell themselves on the idea of spending money. If you fail to do that then YOU have done something wrong. And the adsolutly last thing you want to do is tell your customers its the customers fault.

Danial Stahl might be hot salsa in the board room, but he still has a great deal to learn about selling to the public. And over the last three years I've seen him make some pretty egregious mistakes.

This is the lesson which I truely hope cryptic and Mister Stahl have learned...

Not only must the product meet the customers expectation, there has to be demand for the product sufficent to justify production of the product. The forgiving side of value added item in an MMO is production is a one time only expence, so other then expected operating costs due to product inclusion there are no other costs. Its is nearly if not outright impossible to actually loose a great deal of money.

On the other hand, it very possible to fail to make money and that is exactly what happened at cryptic with previous C-store KDF faction ships and products. Failure to previously flesh out the KDF faction (assuming this is what is going to happen in May) has seriously impacted any possible sale of value added product to players. This was a result of poor and incomplete product visulation and planning, compounded by poor customer relations and communication.

((telling that supposedly 18% of your player base that they're not worth spending any effort on has really got to be one of the utterly stupidest statements I have ever seen come out of a corporate representitives mouth in my lifetime by the by. Great example of piss poor customer relations))

Were I cryptic at this point in time, I would trot out anywhere from 2 to 3 ZEN store ships and possibly a uniform pack or two for the KDF over the next two months. I would expect utterly zip for sales untill the additional KDF content is added to the KDF in May. I would continue to have part of my development team activly working on further KDF content for the rest of the year trotting out something new every single month, anything that would increase the possibility of a NEW player considering playing a KDF character. I would continue to trot out value added product for the majority of my customer base (UFP), while continuing to develop further cross faction content.

I would not expect to show any real return for a period of anywhere from 6 months to a year due to the previous failure to address the interests of this portion of the player base.
The return will happen, but before that happens a whole lot of discontent and outright anger needs to be given time to heal and pass on. This is because this is a Star Trek based property and players ARE emotionally invested in the Trek universe. Expecting more then your customers are willing to deliver is setting ones self up for failure, and dissapointment. I do belive there has been plenty of that all ready.

We customers who want to play KDF are people. Living, working, breathing people. People with lives outside of this game, jobs, home children, families, responsibilities. That is why we got so upset over Stahls 18% remark. Danial Stahl, from either a lack of experience, or a lack of comprehension turned and flat discounted nearly 1/3rd of STO's products customer base. (yes, quite a few NON KDF players were shocked and agog at how Daniel discounted nearly 20% of his products customers)
Now he has changed since he went off to Zinga, and returned to Cryptic. Maybe it was something that he experienced over there, or maybe it was simply getting some time away and clearing his head. I've never quite forgiven him. It is, and was a remarkably insensitive remark on his part that was absolutly going to end up getting taken out of context. For some of us, it was "fight'n" words, and still are. It can be made up for though.
Doing right by Trek and the KDF player base would go a long way toward mending what turned into a significant wound. And to those who would say its not a big deal, don't ever say it to my face out here in the real world or you will have a very nasty painfull fight on your hands. You will be missing some flesh when I'm done. I feel strongly 'nuff about it to fight.. a real fight, not a battle with words.

Khemaraa sends
Release 8.5 "STO The Next Generation"

Let the happy old bug stomping commence, along with refinement toward enhancing each factions play experience!
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:00 PM.