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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 153
# 121
02-26-2013, 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Huh, my Tac console thread didn't make it on the list?

I'm not going to argue the points made by OP, even though I disagree with them in part. However, I want to add on to what has been mentioned:

  • Cruisers are not nearly useful in PvE because their tanking capability isn't that critical. I've been in Elite STFs where a handful of escorts could bring down cubes before a cruiser's ability to resist damage really factors in.
  • Trying to spec cruiser for damage won't it make it any better an escort at the task, while unreasonably sacrificing survivability. Basically, it becomes so much worse at everything.
  • You've forgotten to include the Galor, but I suppose that also goes to show how much better Tactical orientation is than Engineering. It also goes to show how even a marginal improvement in some qualities could make cruisers viable combat vehicles.
  • In PvP, cruiser weapons just seem like they only exist for the purpose of having something to shoot with, and not to actually deal damage. I've managed to use BOIII to knock down a section of shielding on a number of occasions, but I've never actually managed to follow up on that opening.
  • Escorts cannot quite match well-made cruiser builds in terms of sheer damage resilience, but their qualities are such that they can be very survivable and still make a useful contribution to a fight.
  • KDF Battlecruisers are simply better, and no two ways about it.

To further expand on the subject of tanking...

In PvE, cruisers can tank fairly well because of how AI works and how Threat Control can force AI to target cruisers over other members of your team. However, it doesn't mean a whole lot if cubes and the lot cannot withstand or retaliate the assault of multiple escorts.

In PvP, you either tank or you heal, but tanking means nothing if you cannot pose enough of a threat to draw players' attention or force it on you. Likewise, it also means nothing if your shields aren't all that much stronger because once one quadrant falls, you're toast: unlike escorts, you can't manoeuvre to cover your weak spots. Healing seems to just about the only role that cruisers can safely provide, but some cruisers are made to heal better than others.

As for the OP's suggested improvements, I think that cruisers lack in variety compared to other ships, and are also incapable of tanking adequately, as I have explained above. If cruisers can't fulfil their tanking role well, then why must they be stuck with a turn rate that appears to be actually slower than that of a Borg Cube?

I won't deign to comment on nerfing either escorts, dhcs, or both, since those are separate issues, and involving them in the topic would only lead to unnecessary antagonism. What we ought to discuss should specifically pertain to why cruisers are underperforming, or otherwise undesirable, compared to other choices.

~

Personally, I think that a few cruisers could use a boost in their turn rate, which is to say that every single cruiser with the exception of the Star Cruiser, Support Cruiser, and the Odysseys. Moreover, while the characteristics of cruisers are not identical, they are ultimately oriented towards roughly the same capabilities of healing/support/tanking, when it might be better to distinguish within these rough categorical outlines. Some cruisers may be built for pure tanking, while others qualify as offensive tanks or the more esoteric role of "point defenders" (cruisers that can exercise both mobility and tanking qualities).

Beam Array power drain is excessive and causes a massive decrease in the effective DPS of a cruiser, which is already inferior to escorts under most circumstances. Beam abilities are hobbled by disadvantages that are not present or otherwise negligible for Torpedo and Cannon abilities. While I don't have any particular qualms about the scattering nature of Fire At Will, Beam Overload comes into mind for the exceptional number of faults it has, namely in terms of its reliance on power for damage, delay and interruption of firing cycles and its disconcerting tendency to miss and do no damage at all.

Cruisers would also be more viable if they could make effective use of kinetic weapons such as torpedoes, but the ship class as a whole would be far more effective if they either had conditional mobility capabilities or the ability to enforce zoning (i.e., cripple enemy mobility or force them into a situation where they must engage the cruiser).
This response is mostly related to PVP. In PVE I think cruisers are allright.

I can't really do too much damage in pvp on my cruiser unless I sacrifice some good survivability, and I need a lot of survivability otherwise I'll get blown up real quick. I've been running the stock Assault Cruiser with fire at will when facing one target, all anti-proton beam weapons with the occasional quantum torpedo depending upon if I want something different, and directed energy modulation 3. I also sometimes run with a vent-theta radiation console or warp plasma.

Basically, it's the "Dragon" cruiser spec or similar to it that was posted on these forums somewhere. It's not bad, and I can still kill people with it, but it's not great. I certainly cannot take down a Jem'Hadar Escort, or some of the other escorts out there. The problem isn't that they do too much damage, the problem is that I cannot penetrate their shields. I just don't do enough damage. There are many fights where I can survive indefinitely, but I cannot kill certain people. Perhaps if cruisers got an extra tactical slot, I might be able to do a bit better. The answer to this game seems to be just buff damage to fix things, so...I guess I can't have best of both worlds...but not being able to penetrate an escorts shields or destroy him/her is just annoying, in most cases it's just a stalemate for me at that point.

I just don't think an escort should have more powerful shields or hull than a cruiser, in pvp.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 82
# 122
02-26-2013, 08:12 PM
Quote:
it should be easy to agree, Cryptic needs to bring in the tank/dps/healer scheme used in every other MMO that makes it where you need all 3 classes
Why would we get rid of something unique to do the same boring crap that every other mmo does. And fails at. Even WoW has moved drastically away from a hard trinity, because simply put, failing when you are by yourself is terrible when most of the game is played by yourself!

Cruisers are absolutely fine at taking damage. Their 'tank' is not an issue, it is gameplay speed! Making them tankier does not make them more fun to play, it either makes them required, completely breaking the STF search engine and most of the gameplay we currently have, or it just further obsoletes them in terms of Escorts.

Improving cruiser damage would not be making them play like escorts, it would be making cruisers as a viable option to escorts. STO has emphasized relying upon yourself to stay and dealing damage. Shouldn't that be embraced rather than thrown away to cling to 20 year old party dynamics? To take WoW did Warlocks dealing dot damage infringe upons Mages as a nuker? Or did it simply create a different way to deal damage, that appealed to different players?

Some people like being nimble, flying around like a jet fighter and only dealing with frontal arcs. Some people like being a slow, rumbling behemoth who unleashes death via broadside. And some people would like to tear the forces of the universe asunder and crush their foes. All those should be viable and equal. Not okay, I fly a jet fighter, the giant intimidating battleship heals me, and the guy who can alter the forces of reality holds things still so I can hit them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 153
# 123
02-26-2013, 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by melisande77 View Post
Why would we get rid of something unique to do the same boring crap that every other mmo does. And fails at. Even WoW has moved drastically away from a hard trinity, because simply put, failing when you are by yourself is terrible when most of the game is played by yourself!

Cruisers are absolutely fine at taking damage. Their 'tank' is not an issue, it is gameplay speed! Making them tankier does not make them more fun to play, it either makes them required, completely breaking the STF search engine and most of the gameplay we currently have, or it just further obsoletes them in terms of Escorts.

Improving cruiser damage would not be making them play like escorts, it would be making cruisers as a viable option to escorts. STO has emphasized relying upon yourself to stay and dealing damage. Shouldn't that be embraced rather than thrown away to cling to 20 year old party dynamics? To take WoW did Warlocks dealing dot damage infringe upons Mages as a nuker? Or did it simply create a different way to deal damage, that appealed to different players?

Some people like being nimble, flying around like a jet fighter and only dealing with frontal arcs. Some people like being a slow, rumbling behemoth who unleashes death via broadside. And some people would like to tear the forces of the universe asunder and crush their foes. All those should be viable and equal. Not okay, I fly a jet fighter, the giant intimidating battleship heals me, and the guy who can alter the forces of reality holds things still so I can hit them.
Agreed. Tossing us into a trinity would not only make it where our stf queue is gonna need reworked but would make this just another stale MMO that there are a ton of. Don't need nor want that for this game. Shouldn't be to hard to find alternatives. Sci ships get a bonus that the longer they lock onto a target the more damage they will do to that target. How bout doing something like that for cruisers, the longer a cruiser is locked onto a target the more resistance we build up to it weapons. Honestly add something like that and you've given cruisers something unique ppl will want. Then just need reworking on beam arrays to make them stop draining so much power and bring them more on pace with how cannons work and dps should go up from just that. Though honestly I think they also should boost turn rates on them by 2.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 706
# 124
02-26-2013, 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
If I need to explain that bad for you then you clearly would not understand it. Look up the definition, extrapolate how that would relate to gameplay, and see why that would be superior to every class essentially being merged into the same basic skill set.
I think you're being unnecessarily arrogant about what you think I'd understand. I want to know what synergy means to you and how you think it applies best to the game. No amount of extrapolation will give me insight into your opinion on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
Deny it until your pink skin turns Andorian blue, you demand escort play while piloting a Cruiser.
I agree with the request of others for a reduction in energy drain for beam weapons and a slight turn rate increase for cruisers by one or two points. No more than that. That would not lead to escort play while piloting a cruiser.

You have misjudged me on the poor side, but then I don't imagine your thought processes could lead to better conclusions.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 125
02-27-2013, 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by melisande77 View Post
...

Improving cruiser damage would not be making them play like escorts, it would be making cruisers as a viable option to escorts. STO has emphasized relying upon yourself to stay and dealing damage. Shouldn't that be embraced rather than thrown away to cling to 20 year old party dynamics? To take WoW did Warlocks dealing dot damage infringe upons Mages as a nuker? Or did it simply create a different way to deal damage, that appealed to different players?

Some people like being nimble, flying around like a jet fighter and only dealing with frontal arcs. Some people like being a slow, rumbling behemoth who unleashes death via broadside. And some people would like to tear the forces of the universe asunder and crush their foes. All those should be viable and equal. Not okay, I fly a jet fighter, the giant intimidating battleship heals me, and the guy who can alter the forces of reality holds things still so I can hit them.
100% agreed.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 823
# 126
02-27-2013, 05:45 AM
Although there seems to be some kind of consensus about cruisers needing a little buff to their turn rate and beam arrays a generell buff of some kind like heavy beam arrays or reduced power drain I still think this thread is doing about it the wrong way.

First before anything else the goal should be to find a commen sense about what we expect from the different classes roles. Because if you just buff cruisers/beam arrays its the tacs that are happy because they can now use cruisers much better but there would be even less reasons to play engis let alone sci captains and the main goal here imo should be to habe engis scis and tacs all perform good at some NEEDED role and in a second step to have tacs only really gettong to their full potential wirh escorts, engis with cruisers and scis in science vessels.

So basically we need a clear cut role for each of those to perform great at and have a number of mechanics making that role as much of a necessity as possible without making gameplay without all 3 kinds present impossible.

While im a math guy myself i'm not yet really into all the current mechanics so I leave the details to those more in to it but I still would like to add some of my views.

Only if we have figures those roles outas exactas possible we can try to balance ships in a way that doesnt kill inter-class-balancing making tacs even more interessting and everything else less. Image a tac in a cruiser doing about the same dmg as an escort tac captain while having a cruiser with all its surviveability.. I would call that broken and thats possibly the reason why cryptic hasnt done anything in this matter.

So in the end here are some of my observations:

-while tac captains get APA and GDF as basic only good for them dmg buffs and FOMM and ofc the tacfleet as generell dmg boosters/resistance debuff the only really nice engi skill in that regard is miracle worker which sadly has a high cd so it cant possibly be enough to compensate for APA and GDF
-science abilities and in basically all heals and buffs have a very low range. It may seem high enough but there are so many instances when someone needing a heal is just to far away to help him while still we both attack the same target just that he is maybe on the other side of the cube my being 5km away him also makes 10 already and some skills like extend shields dont even go that far. So maybe im bad at steering my ships but I find it very hard to use the little skills i have to help others as sci or engi just because of range issues.

These at least are the little points I wanted to make. The actual class discussion i leave toyou guys just wanted to say how this discussion should go about doing it. Have fun
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 233
# 127
02-27-2013, 06:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by melisande77 View Post
Why would we get rid of something unique to do the same boring crap that every other mmo does. And fails at. Even WoW has moved drastically away from a hard trinity, because simply put, failing when you are by yourself is terrible when most of the game is played by yourself!

Cruisers are absolutely fine at taking damage. Their 'tank' is not an issue, it is gameplay speed! Making them tankier does not make them more fun to play, it either makes them required, completely breaking the STF search engine and most of the gameplay we currently have, or it just further obsoletes them in terms of Escorts.

Improving cruiser damage would not be making them play like escorts, it would be making cruisers as a viable option to escorts. STO has emphasized relying upon yourself to stay and dealing damage. Shouldn't that be embraced rather than thrown away to cling to 20 year old party dynamics? To take WoW did Warlocks dealing dot damage infringe upons Mages as a nuker? Or did it simply create a different way to deal damage, that appealed to different players?

Some people like being nimble, flying around like a jet fighter and only dealing with frontal arcs. Some people like being a slow, rumbling behemoth who unleashes death via broadside. And some people would like to tear the forces of the universe asunder and crush their foes. All those should be viable and equal. Not okay, I fly a jet fighter, the giant intimidating battleship heals me, and the guy who can alter the forces of reality holds things still so I can hit them.
because the trinity is what makes it so every class is viable. Solo content no, but every other MMO when your in 5 man encounters requires the use of a tank/healer/dps. I suggest only a change to STF gameplay, solo content could remain the same level of difficulty it is now. But making cruisers hit harder than they currently do doesn't solve any problems, it just makes them hit harder while still leaving the Engineering profession out in the cold
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 153
# 128
02-27-2013, 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsteward View Post
Although there seems to be some kind of consensus about cruisers needing a little buff to their turn rate and beam arrays a generell buff of some kind like heavy beam arrays or reduced power drain I still think this thread is doing about it the wrong way.

First before anything else the goal should be to find a commen sense about what we expect from the different classes roles. Because if you just buff cruisers/beam arrays its the tacs that are happy because they can now use cruisers much better but there would be even less reasons to play engis let alone sci captains and the main goal here imo should be to habe engis scis and tacs all perform good at some NEEDED role and in a second step to have tacs only really gettong to their full potential wirh escorts, engis with cruisers and scis in science vessels.

So basically we need a clear cut role for each of those to perform great at and have a number of mechanics making that role as much of a necessity as possible without making gameplay without all 3 kinds present impossible.

While im a math guy myself i'm not yet really into all the current mechanics so I leave the details to those more in to it but I still would like to add some of my views.

Only if we have figures those roles outas exactas possible we can try to balance ships in a way that doesnt kill inter-class-balancing making tacs even more interessting and everything else less. Image a tac in a cruiser doing about the same dmg as an escort tac captain while having a cruiser with all its surviveability.. I would call that broken and thats possibly the reason why cryptic hasnt done anything in this matter.

So in the end here are some of my observations:

-while tac captains get APA and GDF as basic only good for them dmg buffs and FOMM and ofc the tacfleet as generell dmg boosters/resistance debuff the only really nice engi skill in that regard is miracle worker which sadly has a high cd so it cant possibly be enough to compensate for APA and GDF
-science abilities and in basically all heals and buffs have a very low range. It may seem high enough but there are so many instances when someone needing a heal is just to far away to help him while still we both attack the same target just that he is maybe on the other side of the cube my being 5km away him also makes 10 already and some skills like extend shields dont even go that far. So maybe im bad at steering my ships but I find it very hard to use the little skills i have to help others as sci or engi just because of range issues.

These at least are the little points I wanted to make. The actual class discussion i leave toyou guys just wanted to say how this discussion should go about doing it. Have fun
Buffing Cruisers would help all professions that fly them. Yea the more damage they do the more Tacs would get out of them but that's with any vessel they fly. Lets fix the ships then If engineers and Science officers need their abilities looked at they should start a thread but this is about cruisers not professions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spork87 View Post
because the trinity is what makes it so every class is viable. Solo content no, but every other MMO when your in 5 man encounters requires the use of a tank/healer/dps. I suggest only a change to STF gameplay, solo content could remain the same level of difficulty it is now. But making cruisers hit harder than they currently do doesn't solve any problems, it just makes them hit harder while still leaving the Engineering profession out in the cold
The trinity is crap. Adding it here would take away from this games uniqueness not help it out. Besides that if you make a hard trinity you have to use then all Stf's would have to have their queues redone so it can put together the proper groups. Make all vessels evenly useful in STF's and in gameplay. For right now there is alot more useful about escorts then the other ships due to tac abilities then Engineer and science. Mainly due to cooldowns or atleast that my thought on both. The problems with STF's is they are all about getting things done quickly and that makes DPS the most needed in them. They should rework them so that the timers take into account the formation of the player ships and then it would'nt be a worry when there's not enough DPS and we could actually enjoy running them.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,466
# 129
02-27-2013, 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spork87 View Post
because the trinity is what makes it so every class is viable. Solo content no, but every other MMO when your in 5 man encounters requires the use of a tank/healer/dps. I suggest only a change to STF gameplay, solo content could remain the same level of difficulty it is now. But making cruisers hit harder than they currently do doesn't solve any problems, it just makes them hit harder while still leaving the Engineering profession out in the cold
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that cruiser balance and engineer balance must be one and the same. Part of STO's charm is the ability for creative people to do insane things with any ship, not just the one that "matches" their Captain's class.

As for the trinity...no. Flexibility and a lack of shoehorning into explicit roles is what should be aimed for, not rigidly defined exclusionary roles that must be adhered to for success. If you want that sort of thing, there are plenty of other titles out there that fit the bill.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 130
02-27-2013, 07:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spork87 View Post
because the trinity is what makes it so every class is viable. Solo content no, but every other MMO when your in 5 man encounters requires the use of a tank/healer/dps. I suggest only a change to STF gameplay, solo content could remain the same level of difficulty it is now. But making cruisers hit harder than they currently do doesn't solve any problems, it just makes them hit harder while still leaving the Engineering profession out in the cold
OMG your right, cruisers, (being hybrid) are classed as dps and tanks and therefore should get a dps boost if they wanted to go dps spec.

Your such a genious.

This is from world of war craft hybrid system.
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