Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 41
03-01-2013, 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwgacy1 View Post
No, what I'm saying is this. For an Escort to have a chance at killing anything it'll have to use most, if not all, of its primary damage buffs to penetrate the defences of another (competent) player. Without those damage buffs the DHCs will be doing little, the buffs are required.
That alone doesn't scream a problem to you? "The problem? It's not optional. It's not if I don't have it I'll suffer for it, but be ok because I have all these other shiny options to choose from. It's taking both to extremes and choking everything else out"

Quote:
For a Tric' mine to kill anything the way they were before they required no skill at all on the part of the player, just use the dispersal pattern, drop the mine and you're done.

My argument is this: the Escort is using many of its BOff and Captain abilities to get a kill, as well as the players personal skill. The Mines were cheap one shots with no skill or effort involved at all. If someone skilled was to use them, they just became even worse. One of those is the result of a good build and skill, the other isn't. Can you guess which is which?
That I will contest. I used tricobolt mines on my Kar'Fi just to match the theme of the frigates. It required planning to get close to a player, and get them to stay within range of the mines once deploy long enough to arm. Then they still have a good number of options to swat or escape the mines. Their bane was they couldn't be stopped or escaped. It was players didn't know how or see them. For being a cheap shot it's hit rate was pretty low. Even with four frigates helping me drop them right on top of someone.

Cannons on the other hand? Require only hit and run tactics with everything bound to a easily spammed key bind. Moving on though...

Quote:
A full volley from a CRF buffed DHC escort will hit over 8 seconds or so giving you more than enough time to react, as well as for your buffs, both those that provide a heal and those providing resistance, to help you. A one shot from a mine doesn't. [...] No, the difference is that one can be resisted using the abilities available to you in game, the other is a cheap shot.
That was understood a while ago.

8seconds you say? three problems. First, People in PvP had a nasty habit of parking right next to big slow ships. Second, that assumes I have nothing better to do then watch every possible attack vector. Third, the battle is over long before those 8 seconds are up. Not even remotely the original point anyway.

Tricobolt was nerfed sheerly on the basis it was possible to abuse them to do absurd damage. (Ignoring the methods that were used to abuse them...)

It's actually been standard practice to do likewise practically unsurvivable absurd damage with HDC. Yet, they remain untouched.

--------

tldr?

What lies implicit, but not spoken was not that there are all these defense you keep telling me about. It's that you need them to survive and that it's become a game of extremes. There is no middle ground. The middle ground is a smoking crater and firmly a causality. By nerfing tricobolt they have deemed extremes bad, but left the others untouched. Why?

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 03-01-2013 at 05:20 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 737
# 42
03-01-2013, 05:24 PM
hahaha PVP.. Well I started the second day of STO and have never seen balanced PVP here.. Klingons all get Viral matrix (remember that one?) Escorts that break the laws of physics (oh so cannon..) the Tric. tricks and very little from the Devs to cause hope.. welcome to STO enjoy your boxes..
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 43
03-01-2013, 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loading159 View Post
If you showed me an escort that can deal 600,000 damage in one volley id be listening, because I would for sure try that. so long as its not tric mines. those just are not fun.
Nope, I couldn't even tell you had to get close to that. I should apologizes for being so hostile. I just wanted to make sure you were in fact paying attention and thinking after the "BECAUSE THATS NOT HAPPENING. and if you say it does, then you are a liar." line.

What I keep trying to figure out how to word doesn't look to be plainly visible.

Quote:
I deleted half your quote I wanted to use but oh well. I agree that the op needs to offer something to fix the "problem" or tell us how/why he dies so fast. what his build is so maybe we can help. etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
The OP strikes me as someone who is either with bad players that don't help each other in PvP, has been the victim of a pre made with a combo of very hard to counter consoles or just isn't experienced enough to know some of the better counters.
I'm not looking for that kind of fix. I'm being too indirect or hostile maybe? I can configure my ship to fend off more then one alpha strike if I absolutely have to. As I said, I'm not interested in fixing the symptoms.

At some point I'm certain there was a middle ground. It died to things drifting to far to the fringes. The tricobolt nerf was a message that the extreme fringes were unacceptable to the devs vision of the game. They stomped on a extreme, hard!

So why then have they left the others in place?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,101
# 44
03-01-2013, 06:12 PM
Reason why tric mines had to be nerfed some is that while they didn't seem op for average people, they could get ridiculously high damage numbers from tacs fully specced into both projectile skills and running all purple tric mines with crit mods and purple tric consoles. I was regularly hitting for over 200k per mine on crits, and when 1 crits they all crit. I even got up to almost 300k per mine before on a crit before against Donatra on elite. Thats almost 1.2 million damage, it almost 1 shotted her.

You can't do nearly the same kind of damage with DHC.

Now only people that have tacs with full projectile spec will be able to do decent damage with these mines, and even then it almost never 1 shots cubes, and sometimes players are able to survive multiple mine hits. I think a nerf might have been needed, but perhaps they went a little too far and should find a middle ground between how they perform now and before the nerf. It should be super high damage, but not enough to 1 shot a boss on elite or get close to doing it.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 45
03-01-2013, 06:23 PM
Ok, but I meant middle where I could take no or few defensive abilities, still be useful, and not be stopped dead by the first tactical escort that comes along.

That or bite back hard enough that while I didn't match the direct damage of someone setup to do massive damage, we'd chew each other badly enough it wouldn't be a one sided fight. Right now fights are pretty cut and dry where there is a clear defender and a clear attacker, and nothing in between.

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 03-01-2013 at 06:25 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 165
# 46
03-03-2013, 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
Ok, but I meant middle where I could take no or few defensive abilities, still be useful, and not be stopped dead by the first tactical escort that comes along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loading159 View Post
honestly I feel like this topic is just about people complaining that they have to take survivability abilities so they don't die.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
That or bite back hard enough that while I didn't match the direct damage of someone setup to do massive damage, we'd chew each other badly enough it wouldn't be a one sided fight. Right now fights are pretty cut and dry where there is a clear defender and a clear attacker, and nothing in between.
ok ill go for making science ships deal more damage. but I must point out that the classes are basically defined as, escort = attacker, cruiser = support/defender, science = support/debuff. I think you meant to say there is a clear winner / loser, as in 5-0. So sure maybe making science ships deal more damage would be good. but then I want the vestas aux cannon to be unique per ship. I only say increase science ships damage because when I fight them I worry mostly about getting hit with a sub nuc over anything esle they can throw out. however I usually find that science ships are the hardest to kill, more so than cruisers.
Captain Moe
U.S.S. Prometheus
Fleet Multi Vector Advanced Escort
Resistance is futile

Last edited by loading159; 03-03-2013 at 07:45 PM.
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