Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,711
# 71
02-26-2013, 01:46 PM
Quote:
The only way a reputation system can be implemented without situations a) or b) eventuating is for that gear to only be usable in PvP. That is the fairest scenario of all.
If you do it that way then the shiney fleet ship (which I can only have one of) will have to be stripped of it's PvP specific weapons and re-equipped when I feel like participating in a FM event or grinding my daily dilithium, then stripped/equipped again when I want to go back to arena play. How about those AI fleet reinforcements the other PvP'ers are popping, my PvP weapons are gimped against them now.


Doesn't sound very fair to me.
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

You're gonna upgrade my Chel Grett for FREE but charge me $27 to upgrade my Kamarag ?
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 948
# 72
02-26-2013, 01:52 PM
PVP is the only valid form of gameplay to understand powers and abilities of all ships and abilities to a degree that is understandable to even the lowest common denominator of smart people who play this game and claim they are gods in other games like Call Of Duty. Any sort of content towards this feature of gameplay is Paramount to the involvement of this game and like the other reputation systems and fleet base/embassy systems continues to remain optional to a great many who whine and complain about wanting the best gear now. Yes it is true the KDF need a large amount of Unique PVE story missions but that is only for the fact that this game was promised 'Full' PVE content from its inception in 2010. thus making more than 9 unique missions while the federation has 50+. The logic of leaving PVP the way it is will drive more players away than anything because for so long we have had to deal with some broken abilites here and there, Nerfing of other sorts of craft because of Geko's favoritism, Lockbox ships being the best of the best and now when the opportunity arises for PVPers to have something uniqued we are shunned and insulted like a atheist at a christian concert. I support any installments to PVP to keep it a valid part of the game and maybe bring back members who have been brokenhearted of the long amount of work not taken towards PVP. a good percent of those people are friends of mine.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,567
# 73
02-26-2013, 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
If you do it that way then the shiney fleet ship (which I can only have one of) will have to be stripped of it's PvP specific weapons and re-equipped when I feel like participating in a FM event or grinding my daily dilithium, then stripped/equipped again when I want to go back to arena play. How about those AI fleet reinforcements the other PvP'ers are popping, my PvP weapons are gimped against them now.


Doesn't sound very fair to me.
You're right, that doesn't sound fair. It would be fair if you could have saved setups. I think that saved setups would be awesome regardless of whether or not there's a PvP reputation.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,492
# 74
02-26-2013, 02:03 PM
High end PvP Rep system rewards scewed heavily on winning or Scoreboard chasing is a bad idea. In the end the better players/teams will have even more of an advantage over others.

I agree the winning team should have a faster gain on PvP Rep, but it shouldn't be so much so the losing side ends up being many weeks to months behind before things even out. There's already enough power creep in this game that time gates new players. New items w/new balanced capabilities would be fine, but nothing like we've been seeing w/the Passive boosts in the other Rep system and Fleet Shield procing resists.

Tbh, I'd rather they focus on things like Open Sector PvP, Territory Control PvP, Resource competition, etc. Then build up player and Cryptic seasonal Tourney's w/unique "Rep" prizes that's the equivalant of a Unique Trophey and Title.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,666
# 75
02-26-2013, 02:20 PM
Outside of NWS, is there any PvE content that requires anything more than you'd get from just leveling a toon? You can hit up ESTFs in that mix of green/blue/purps at Mk X/XI that you get from just leveling and complete the Optionals.

You may want better gear to do it in 5 minutes instead of taking 10 minutes, but it's not needed to complete it.

So if there were gear added through a PvP rep system...it's not anything you'd need any more than you actually need any STF gear to do ESTFs. It's all optional. Fleet Ships, Lockbox Ships, Z-Store Ships, Rep Gear, etc, etc, etc... it's all optional for PvE. It's like buying that jacket from the Lobi store... you might want it, but you don't need it.

STO doesn't have the typical gear check progression with PvE content. You're not grinding Dungeon #1 so you can grind Dungeon #2 so you can grind Dungeon #3 so you can grind Raid #1 so you can grind Raid #2 so you can grind Raid #3 just in time to have the gear ready for Dungeon #4...etc, etc, etc.

In that latest STOked interview, Stahl talked about it going that way in discussing keeping ships at T5 but adding higher levels of gear. You may head into an area and find that you need more than you've got. The gear check progression...tada! But it just doesn't exist in that manner currently. You hit 50, if you've got a semi decent build and know what needs to be done - you can hit up any ESTF without the need of any STF gear.

As an aside, it's kind of mind boggling - thinking about it with regard to the Omega Rep. You have to hit level 50 to do it...so you can get level 40 (Mk X), level 45 (Mk XI), and eventually what some might consider Level 50 (Mk XII) gear. That should tell you something right there about the gear that you need to run ESTFs...that it really doesn't matter.

So what if they add gear to a PvP Rep? After all, in the end - who's really using all that gear anyway? It's the folks that PvP. They're grinding away PvE for gear to use in PvP. One can easily say they need it more than the PvE person...who may just want it as a vanity thing, completionist thing, because they want to grind faster, or because it soothes their egos.

None of those are valid reasons for there not to be a PvP Rep system much less one that provides any gear.

And when the game does get into that gear check progression mentality...there will be plenty of ways to get any gear needed. In fact, it will likely end up being the same situation we have now - where folks are massively overgeared for PvE and the gear is really only needed for PvP...


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,929
# 76
02-26-2013, 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
The stuff you need for other reputations is obtained by playing PvE. Multiple ways of PvE, mind you. For example, if you don't want to the Romulan missions for Romulan marks you can go Epohh hunting and trade them in. It's quite obvious that there will be only one way to get PvP marks.

*sigh* I don't know why I'm bothering. The high lords of PvP will start crying and PvP reputation will happen, just like their whining resulted in tricobalt nerfs.
If you want the truth... instead of jumping to conclusions.

The high lords of PvP DON'T What PvP rep. Ok perhaps some of them do... but not all PvPers see the value in it.

I would rather they never even consider doing PvP rep.

Here's the kicker... I think such systems will further Deter folks like you that dabble in PvP from doing it for the right reasons. People that do that often end up becoming good pvp players... and many times Complete PvP converts.

I don't want to see a ton of AFK players in PvP... I don't want to see people running around with no shields on to get it over with... or just plain not trying.

I also don't want a game where every PvP player has there rep maxed... and new players stand ZERO chance of doing anything in pvp untill they get there rep done. Other game developers have done stuff like that and it has killed completely there PvP. Frankly if you need to compete in 200 matches, with people that are basicly kicking your backside around based soley on gear... you won't bother.

If PvP rep happens I would take it as a sign of Cryptic honestly and truly writing PvP off for good.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 77
02-26-2013, 02:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
Leeeeroooy...
I find it amusing and somewhat contradictory that you insist that you dislike and don't want to be forced into PvP, yet voluntarily enter into the most refined form of it here in the meta game, the dreaded Forum PvP.

You've been sent to the respawn a number of times, by the way.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,666
# 78
02-26-2013, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
High end PvP Rep system rewards scewed heavily on winning or Scoreboard chasing is a bad idea. In the end the better players/teams will have even more of an advantage over others.

I agree the winning team should have a faster gain on PvP Rep, but it shouldn't be so much so the losing side ends up being many weeks to months behind before things even out. There's already enough power creep in this game that time gates new players. New items w/new balanced capabilities would be fine, but nothing like we've been seeing w/the Passive boosts in the other Rep system and Fleet Shield procing resists.

Tbh, I'd rather they focus on things like Open Sector PvP, Territory Control PvP, Resource competition, etc. Then build up player and Cryptic seasonal Tourney's w/unique "Rep" prizes that's the equivalant of a Unique Trophey and Title.
One could say the game's already overdue for some sort of PvP Rating System. Not a Ranking System - but a Rating System.

You take the fresh 50 in his RA ship with a hodgepodge of gear.
You take the other 50 in his Fleet ship, both T5, mix of Mk XII and Elite Fleet gear, Universal Consoles, etc, etc, etc.

Those guys really shouldn't be fighting each other. Sure, life sucks and that stuff happens - but it's a game. It's entertainment. It's not life. People play games to get away from that stuff.

With the talk about things sitting at T5 ships but the gear getting better as time goes along... in a few years that fresh 50 (maybe a fresh 60) in his RA ship could be fighting folks in their massively retrofitted Fleet Ships with Mk XXX gear. They're both sporting T5 ships though... /cough

If gear, rep levels, etc, etc, etc had a point level - then the cumulative value of those points could give a Rating...as far as queues go. In Ker'rat and other such areas, yeah... hopefully the fresh 50's a KDF looking to complete his Die25, eh?

The gear gap is only going to grow and grow as time goes on...and personally, I think such a Rating system is already overdue. With such a system in place, one could easily envision multiple levels of PvP Rep Ranking based on the divides from that PvP Rating.

It's just kind of funny - in thinking about my #1 toon and my #6 toon. The #1 guy is sporting that mix of VR Mk XI/XII gear, has various set bonuses, and is T5 in both New Rom/Omega. The #6 guy is sporting that mix of...Green Mk X through Blue Mk XI gear, no sets, and isn't even T1 in either New Rom/Omega. Both are in T5 ships though, eh? That gear discrepancy is only going to get worse as time goes on...


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,929
# 79
02-26-2013, 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
You amuse me.

If a PvP reputation system comes in to being whilst PvP is still broken there there will be new gear that comes out that the non-PvPers will either:

a) Feel forced to participate in a genre that they dislike. Players who are forced to do things they don't like tend to lose interest in a game.

b) Go without, all the whilst feeling resentful that the gear is not available via PvE which is the VAST majority of this game. (If PvP was the majority I'm sure they'd have more than 8 maps available. Care to argue that point?)

Options a) and b) are not good for the longevity of the game. Then again if you cared for the longevity of the game you might be able to see that.

The only way a reputation system can be implemented without situations a) or b) eventuating is for that gear to only be usable in PvP. That is the fairest scenario of all.
OH geez H

I got to say I hate the idea of PvP rep.... However

After reading this one I REALLY REALLY hope we get rep.

So you can understand how we all feel about having to go and chase STUPID Romulan Rats... and blow up the 1000th terribly written Borg AI.... At least in the STFS I can laugh at all the PVE players that can't manage to kill borg, or the ones that manage to somehow die in those things. The Romulan stuff... most PvPers want to slit there wrists every time they find themselves chasing digital rats around.

Yep now I want rep... and perhaps I'll start complaining really loudly till we get it. lol
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 02-26-2013 at 02:46 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,666
# 80
02-26-2013, 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
I don't want to see a ton of AFK players in PvP... I don't want to see people running around with no shields on to get it over with... or just plain not trying.
There were AFKers for Dil.
There are AFKers for Marks.
There's little doubt there would be AFKers for Rep.

It's mind boggling that in the post talking AFKers in PvP and something being done - that thing being done was to give the AFKers more reason to AFK and to introduce more AFKers into PvP.

It doesn't bode well for PvP - given the direction Cryptic's already taken...meh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
I also don't want a game where every PvP player has there rep maxed... and new players stand ZERO chance of doing anything in pvp untill they get there rep done. Other game developers have done stuff like that and it has killed completely there PvP. Frankly if you need to compete in 200 matches, with people that are basicly kicking your backside around based soley on gear... you won't bother.
Which basically leads back to the first thing I quoted from you... and this, in my experience, has led to folks even forming Efficient Losing Teams - trying to lose as quickly as possible. It drove me crazy in other games. I mean, I wanted to pick one of them up to beat the crap out of the others with...it just ticked me off that much.

It's one of those things where there is tons of information available for Cryptic not to repeat the same mistakes that other developers have made... unfortunately, in most cases that information was already there for many of the developers out there before they repeated the same mistakes anyway... so again, it doesn't bode well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
If PvP rep happens I would take it as a sign of Cryptic honestly and truly writing PvP off for good.
Depends on how they do it. But since most folks get it wrong, it's nothing personal against Cryptic - just likely that they'll do it wrong too.


Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
U.S.S. Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser - U.S.S. Deogen, Phantom Intel Escort
U.S.S. Endless, Hazari Destroyer - U.S.S. Naked Sun, Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser
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