Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,080
# 91
03-02-2013, 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
lulz Engies suck and no brainstorming will fix them. They have no utility compared to Sci at all. Snb > all.
To the point one could also easily question the relevancy of Tacs...

You have a target that's being beaten on, shrugging off spike from multiple attackers - because healing/buffing is just that good. You hit them with that series of timed SNBs and other Sci debuffs...how long does the target live? It's almost as if the Tac damage is massive overkill - how fast that target will pop. With that damage being such, wouldn't it make sense to bring more SNB so you could do those timed debuffs more often?

Five Sci...mix of Bugs/Wells/etc.

Hrrmm...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 876
# 92
03-02-2013, 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
To the point one could also easily question the relevancy of Tacs...

You have a target that's being beaten on, shrugging off spike from multiple attackers - because healing/buffing is just that good. You hit them with that series of timed SNBs and other Sci debuffs...how long does the target live? It's almost as if the Tac damage is massive overkill - how fast that target will pop. With that damage being such, wouldn't it make sense to bring more SNB so you could do those timed debuffs more often?

Five Sci...mix of Bugs/Wells/etc.

Hrrmm...
I'd still take at least one tac in an escort.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,080
# 93
03-02-2013, 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
I'd still take at least one tac in an escort.
Can definitely see that. Reason why I ended my post with a hrrmm... was still thinking out various possibilities. Whether it was for taking out that first target faster to reduce the potential crosshealing or busting a particularly tankier target...at least one Tac would still add something.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 337
# 94
03-03-2013, 10:25 AM
Aside from the innate captain abilities that can only be used on self, another part of the equation that make Engineers useless in PvP are the current skill system and a lot of the Doffs that grant passive boosts to healing and energy efficiency.

Energy management isn't a problem anymore with the current skill system so that EPS, one of only 2 Engineer abilities that can be cast on others, might as well be cast on self.

Marion Frances Dulmur gives any captain running DEM their own Nadeon Inversion with a much quicker cooldown than the actual ability itself.

Shield Distribution Officers grant any captain their own little RSF with only 2/3rds the cooldown time.

So when you think about it, Engineers are little more than glorified Duty Officers rather than full fledged Captains.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 196
# 95
03-05-2013, 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
So when you think about it, Engineers are little more than glorified Duty Officers rather than full fledged Captains.
Seconded! It certainly feels that way now; even the other powers of Engineers feel like nothing more than regular bridge officer abilities. Let me post the numbers I get for each ability (on a Oddy healboat that specializes in hull/shield healings, no less):

Engineering Fleet:
+26.6 All Damage Resistance Rating for 30sec
+16 Starship Hull Repair for 30sec
+16 Warp Core Potential for 30sec

All three parts of this ability are decidedly less than impressive.
- The +26.6 Hull DR is less than half of what a simple AtSIF3 gives gives to a target, and with the way that resists have diminishing returns, this adds little to no actual hull resist to a ship that is already using armor consoles or is being affected by any one of the myriad +DR boff abilities out there.
- The +16 hull repair might have been nice, except for the fact that it's equivalent to a single common Mk XI SIF generator. (Plus, ET doffs do similar things.)
- The +16 WCP? A whopping 1.6 extra power in all subsystems! Whoooo!

This ability simply doesn't compare to Sci Fleet (33% reduction to incoming shield damage -- not only a stronger resist than an EPtS3, but shield resist is also generally more useful than hull resist) or Tac Fleet (bonus to entire team's damage, always helpful in taking down a focused target -- also combos well with Tac's other innate abilities!). To be honest, there's rarely an occasion where it feels necessary to apply Engineering Fleet -- the bonuses that it gives are so paltry for the 5min CD that it suffers.

Miracle Worker:
+17,733.5 Hit Points
5666.2 Shield Regeneration applied once to each facing
Repairs disabled subsystems
(Numbers reported on a sci oddy with 194 Hull Repair and 178 Shield Emitters, so these values are near the top of what it can do.)

This is one of those abilities that initially looks nice, but then you realize just how failtastic it really is.
- +17,733.5 hull points sounds nice... until you realize that the lowly AtSIF3 can do +10,341.6 hull repair AND add a nice hull DR bonus, with only a 15s cooldown. Plus, the hull repair really isn't much of a "miracle" -- it gives me only about 1/4 of my total hull on the Sci Oddy, and for an escort it'll return something closer to 1/3.
- Again, 5666.2 shield regeneration per facing sounds nice... except that ST3 can do 4249.7 shield heals, clear science debuffs for 5s, and be ready again in 30s (15, if doffed). Other boff abilities like TSS3 will do even more shield healing AND provide shield resist while doing it.
- Repairs disabled subsytems: This one might be nice, but there are sooooo many ways of repairing subsystems (EPtX, batteries, just waiting it out with human boffs and whatever redshirts are alive) that it's hardly worth a 4min cooldown.
- Finally, MW provides an instant heal and subsystem repair... but no resists or other supporting buffs. Unless you've got another trick up your sleeve, MW does nothing more than delay your death by a few seconds. Hardly worth the length 4min cd.

Finally, Rotate Shield Frequency:
211.6 Shield Regeneration for 30 sec for each facing
Reduces Damage to Shields by 41.6% for 30 sec
(Numbers reported at 115 shield power, with 178 Shield Emitters skill.)

This one is admittedly nice -- in my opinion, it's the eng captain's only actually useful ability. However, it must be noted that its effects are very similar to having an Extend Shields cast by a teammate on you -- the HoT effect is still lower than, say, TSS. And with the long cooldown compared to an actual ExS, you still have to be careful about when to apply it. It practice, it really does feel like nothing more than an ExS that has a longer cooldown and is castable only on self -- it's not the game-changer that APA or SNB are. (Heck, even Sci's comparable skill, Sensor Scan, gives something that boffs can't offer.)

In the end, even Eng captains' healing/resist abiltiies feel like they're nothing special compared to what bridge and duty officers can give -- they're nothing like Tac or Sci, which give abilities that bridge/duty officers can't truly mimic. Thanks to their abilities, Tac and Sci captains define their own playstyle and can control an entire match's dynamic; Eng captains' abilities, unfortunately, lack the same ability.

Last edited by renimalt; 03-05-2013 at 01:48 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,526
# 96
03-05-2013, 01:48 AM
lol, on a dedicated healer MW is pathetic. its just another spike heal you cant use very often, compared to something that does 2/3 the healing that you can cycle every 15 seconds. the shield heal, just cycling EPtS will do most of that too

and EPS transfer does nearly nothing effectively

and nadion does nearly nothing effectively

eng fleet is a joke

RSF is nice for that hard core resist, but thats it


are you even trying eng?


they should just give eng captains APA and scattering field, and trash EPS and Nadion for them. let the class be a cross between sci and tac. because really, theres no room between ether of those things, but something with a little bit of both might be nice.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 03-05-2013 at 01:52 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 427
# 97
03-05-2013, 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
lol, on a dedicated healer MW is pathetic. its just another spike heal you cant use very often, compared to something that does 2/3 the healing that you can cycle every 15 seconds. the shield heal, just cycling EPtS will do most of that too

and EPS transfer does nearly nothing effectively

and nadion does nearly nothing effectively

eng fleet is a joke

RSF is nice for that hard core resist, but thats it


are you even trying eng?


they should just give eng captains APA and scattering field, and trash EPS and Nadion for them. let the class be a cross between sci and tac. because really, theres no room between ether of those things, but something with a little bit of both might be nice.
Yup those skills aren t efficient enough And there are some eng bof skills like boarding party, aceton beam who are rarely used because their long cd and ineffectiveness. We also have the directed energy modulation + current up beam arrays = useless too . And there is the extend shields with 7 km range which is hard to cast when your ship turns with 6 degrees !
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,080
# 98
03-05-2013, 02:41 AM
Let's step through the mystical portal to another land...

...and imagine the following - just using RA ships.

Engineer in an Assault Cruiser.
Tactical in an Advanced Escort.
Tactical in a Patrol Escort.
Science in a Reconnaissance Science Vessel.
Science in a Deep Space Science Vessel.

Tank, DPS, DPS, Debuff/DPS, Buff/Healer.

It's pretty easy to picture that tank build for the Cruiser. It's very easy to picture the DPS builds for the Escorts. It's even damn easy to picture the two Sci Vessels. Sure, folks would have varying builds - but the gist for all five - is incredibly easy to imagine.

Stepping back from the ships, gear, BOFFs - you can also picture the rotations/priorities of just the innate abilities of each of the captains, eh? The layering of debuffs/buffs - wham, bam, shazam!

You're probably picturing a plethora of parties you've been in while running through oodles and oodles of dungeons in a myriad of games. Yep, it's right there - the typical dungeon party. Brilliant!

Unfortunately, there's two issues:

1) In many of those games where they have that typical dungeon romp and PvP - the tanks have more options in PvP than they do in STO. Given that a "character" is a combination of several factors in STO (skill build, innate abilities, ship, etc, etc, etc) - the Engineer simply has too much of that dungeon tank built into them as innate abilities. There's too much self-tank...not enough party tank...built into the career in space. Compare it to ground and the issue in space is obvious, eh?

2) Er...where's the space content in STO that even requires that typical dungeon party? I mean, seriously... are you going to try to run any of the ESTFs with it? Why do we have the "Trinity" in STO with no "Trinity" content? For the most part, each character can sport their own mix of the "Trinity"...with crosshealing, the simple hybrid nature of the game - well, it's kind of mind-bogging, eh?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 371
# 99
03-05-2013, 06:08 AM
If they would make HE and TSS only self targetable, miracle worker and rotate shield freq team targetable, cruisers and engineers would be more important as a healer, whitout loosing their own ability to tank.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 371
# 100
03-05-2013, 06:12 AM
Also shouldn't aceton beam be a sci ability, since its a debuff? Maybe swap with hazard emitters, and make HE clearing more things and less heal/resist (thats where AtoS is for0
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