Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 358
# 51
02-28-2013, 08:11 AM
Thinking more about the TOR Tank in pvp, the bubble would last as long as the protectee was in range and the tank was alive. So to kill a "bubbled" healer or dps, you would either force the distance to increase, kill the tank or do enough damage to force a withdrawal. I do not think directly porting this idea over is a magical fix for engys, but something along these lines would sure help give them a role.

PS- and one of the best things about the system? The scoreboard recorded the amount of protection given in addition to damage and healing.

PPS-my god, is the situation THAT bad that I am fondly remembering TOR?
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,432
# 52
02-28-2013, 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
[...]
Care to explain at what point the Tac has better maximum performance in healing over the Engineer?
Never said that. Both are equally good at healing others.

Quote:
The problem with that assessment, is the assumption that "maximum performance" = "maximum damage", it does not.
When healing is identical, and surviviability mostly depends on other factors, only damage remains when comparing the two.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 53
02-28-2013, 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Never said that. Both are equally good at healing others.
No, they are not.

ENG has more survivability tools, this means they can spare more of it for others.

TACs generally make poor healers, it's not even included in their power suite at all. They have ZERO career specific mitigation abilities.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
When healing is identical, and surviviability mostly depends on other factors, only damage remains when comparing the two.

Your points above are vague, they don't actually say anything.

Their self healing is not identical.

The amount they can spare for others is not identical.

Survivability depends on a lot of factors, and what you can do for yourself is one of them - the ENG very clearly has much more in this area.


SCI functions well as a healer because they do in fact have some career specific survivability tools at their disposal.


Career abilities should be capable of defining an entire moment in combat.

APA can define a moment, SNB definitely defines a moment. RSF and MW can define a moment, but only for the ENG - which requires people to shoot the ENG, usually there is no reason to.


Both of those abilities could define a moment in a more dramatic way, if they were usable on others.

Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,652
# 54
02-28-2013, 09:02 AM
Tacs are = to engi for healing ? lmao

Come on soph even you don't really believe that. (I hope)

Healing goes... Engi > Sci > Tac

Everyone knows that.

We have been talking about making a few of the Engi Self cast abilities team cast... which I think would be needed to put engi CLEARLY back on top... but to say Engi is still not the best healer is a bit absurd.

You could perhaps make an argument that Sci is as good a healer... but when the firing starts as ussultimatum was just saying. Engi can pop there self heals and slot nothing but team heals in there skill slots if that's what they want to do.

If you choose to play your engi that way... you can put together a build that can keep you and 2-3 teammates alive through the focus fire of entire teams with out breaking a sweet.

Your issue has always been trying to play your chosen Captain in a way that is contrary to there basic design.

Engi is not a dmg dealer... and that's ok. I would mainly like to see changes that would put them back on top as the HEALER... cause as much as you don't want to admit it (and yes you have been in this argument many times in the past)... Engi is NOT ever going to be a major dmg dealer... and that is completely by design, if you have yet to figure that out.

Engi at launch was better at healing for a few reasons... 1) MW was castable, and cleared some debuffs... 2) EPS was a much bigger deal when power levels where much lower and EPS transfer rates where minimal... really I remember it taking FOREVER to switch power to full shields for instance.

As this discussion continues sophlogimo take note of what most people agree the role of the Engi class is. IF you ware not playing your engi with the team in mind first... well your not doing it right. At this point I would like to clue you into something in terms of STO pvp in general. If you are not playing your Tactical and Science Captains with the team in mind your doing it wrong as well... escorts escort... and Science Ship, preform Science to support the team.... EVERYONE heals EVERYONE protects... Escorts do it through offense and defensive buffs like Tac team and Delta. (yes 50% of the time when I pug in my escort my tac teams go to someone else... my delta NEVER goes on myself unless I'm under fire... if I'm not under fire it goes on my targets target.... when I play sci I don't subnuke my own target unless I have fire support on that target, if I don't I switch to the target of the nearest DPS vessel... as an Engi you should be paying attention to who the other team is targeting... to who they are retargeting... to who they are switching to ect. When you do that you should be healing them... extends are a god send and sorry that is still to domain of the engi cruiser. (a proper team will extend from the cruiser and tac team from the escort on the focused target... and I have even been on teams that have called the likely switch target. Its always fun to have 5 heals on someone that just got switched to before the other team gets more then one round off on them)

Ok this is turning into a wall of text... I am sorry sophlogimo but you can be so frustrating sometimes... and I don't know why that is. I think mostly its that people tell you this stuff over and over and it just never sinks in.

There is the vision of what you want your engi and your tac ect to be... and then there is the reality of this video game.
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,397
# 55
02-28-2013, 09:17 AM
Dont bother wasting time arguing with a blinded person buddy. He wont listen to reason. He'll even argue with you about balancing pvp on 1v1 scenarios even though devs has said this is not clearly possible. This is the guy that said epts was crap once and now cries its op because he was wrong about it as usual. Clearly he doesnt understand the mechanics of the game, yet wants to come across as a guru. Epic fail.

At the end of the day, the engineer doesn't bring any game changing abilities to a team based pvp match anymore which has made him redundant. Sophie definitely knows nothing about this side of the game so i dont even understand why he even bothers to argue.

By the way this is the guy who thinks there is merit in formation flying in pvp.........

Make your own minds up about this guy's credability with regards to pvp

Last edited by naz4; 02-28-2013 at 09:25 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 302
# 56
02-28-2013, 09:43 AM
I'll agree that Engineers have their problems, but as has been mentioned, most of the ability of an Engineer is to dish heals, and take a beating. In PvE this works fine, but in PvP it's a whole different story. If you run into a smart team, they wont even bother to shoot you and go after the squishy targets, so all that defense you have really means nothing.

Engineer's are really only good for one thing, and it's unfortunately healing. I could see them becoming more of a staple in PvP groups if we could take some of the awesome defense we have, and spread it out to others in the team.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

12th Fleet - Allied Task Force Division
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 57
02-28-2013, 09:50 AM
anyway, im not saying engineers are weak, they just have some useless skills

eps power transfer may be usefull, but the general purpose of it is a little bit off if you try to go with an engineer to a pvp

it gives approx +25 power to each subsystem, which means you will have a little bit more dmg, a little bit more shield regen, little bit more defense and a little bit more effective heals,

but, lets say, compare it to attack pattern alpha, the dmg wont be the same, the defense, the shield regen and healling wont compensate the "immunities", the speed, the crits and the turn rate given by apa

its just a cheap way of buffing a ship, a weak way

lets not talk about nadion, its even more useless than mask energy signature, and it is a captain skill

i would say, power drain, holds, repels, and disable immunity to nadion inversion
and 30 power to each subsystem for eps power transfer
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,652
# 58
02-28-2013, 10:55 AM
I agree with the last couple posts.

I too believe the way to buff engi is to improve there ability to heal others... and I also believe that a buff to there more offensive skills can work as well.

Nadion is the only skill the engi really has that is intended to provide dmg. Considering the doffs and items that have been released lately... I don't think it would be crazy to suggest buffing nadion. EPS as well... although I think EPS can be given more of a multi use buff to more fit the idea of what people think when they think "engineer".

Make MW castable and have it cure as ET does... make it the engi ultimate ET 3 / ST 3 Engi cure it should be. The cool down is long enough that it would need strategic use and it would not break the balance in anyway.

RSF I really can't think of to many reasons not to make this one a castable skill either. I think it would be a great add for PvE (yes I said it) as the DPS ships almost always take and hold argo... why not give the engi healer a way to boost there shields outside of extends.

EPS transfer... I already mentioned what I would like to see here... but some type of buff to healing or resists could be a nice boon to this skill... There is no reason it couldn't add a +30 or so to a bunch of skills.

Nadion I think... can use a bonus dmg boost like the omega proc has for free. I also think a small dmg boost would be acceptable on it. I don't think something in the range of 10-30% or so would be a major issue. Tacs will still have far more powerful buffs on much shorter cool downs... Sci also has 2 very powerful debuffs on shorter cool downs. Nadion will still be the poor mans version of dmg... but it used to fit the class nicely and it can again. Providing a ramp up of the dmg cycle on the Engi Dps 16% of the time.

At that point We won't see 5 man engi teams by any means... but perhaps people won't cring when they get 3+ of them in an STF pug... or a PvP one. Also with those few small changes I think the debate on taking an engi or two on a premade will evaporate. It will make sense to have an engi healer again. With changes that involve some thinking I think the skill required to do it extremely well would still be very high... but the payoff would be clear.
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 59
02-28-2013, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post

Healing goes... Engi > Sci > Tac

Yep, and damage generally goes (not directed specifically at you):

TAC > SCI > ENG

Except SCI's version of "damage" is pure force multiplier.

(for those that don't understand the term, it refers to powers that increase the entire performance of the team: SNB = Force multiplier. SS & FOMM = Force Multipliers. APA & RSF =/= Force Multipliers).


Now debuffing (or Force Multiplication):

SCI > TAC > ENG



For anyone paying attention you'll notice that SCI is always in one of the 2 top spots for healing, offense and debuffing (although their offense is a direct result of their debuffing) - this is by design and SCI is the most team friendly of all the careers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Your issue has always been trying to play your chosen Captain in a way that is contrary to there basic design.

Engi is not a dmg dealer... and that's ok. I would mainly like to see changes that would put them back on top as the HEALER... cause as much as you don't want to admit it (and yes you have been in this argument many times in the past)... Engi is NOT ever going to be a major dmg dealer... and that is completely by design, if you have yet to figure that out.
This really needs to be blasted on the main page at this point, and not just for Sophie.

This is one of the biggest issues in casual MMOs, there are people who love the super tanky mitigation values or self preservation powers that come with Tanks.

Those same players dislike the trade off in damage that is intrinsically linked with this level of mitigation and is also found in MMOs with a "tank" class.



This is why these forums have a non-stop parade of ENG vs. TAC and Cruiser vs. Escort, and Cruisers/Beams don't do "good damage".

People playing outside of role, but wanting the abilities of another role - and completely unwilling to lose mitigation for it or they would have just played the other role in the first place.


It's also why those threads are almost universally focused on TACs & Escorts comparing to ENG & Cruisers - when if you look at the issue, the real issue, SCI & Hybrid Sci ships do more role stealing from the ENG than TAC could ever hope for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
There is the vision of what you want your engi and your tac ect to be... and then there is the reality of this video game.

...and almost every MMO that has some form of role splitting amongst careers.




Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Nadion is the only skill the engi really has that is intended to provide dmg.
I've never seen nadion that way.

I've always seen nadion as a mitigator, it's a drain mitigator and should completely nullify any and all drain attacks.

It's a survivability tool that has some power management benefits when it comes to weapons, particularly weapons the Eng was most likely designed to make good use of: Beams, BFAW (tanking/spam clearing/massive arc through BAs), BO (more limited use spike tool, better suited for DBB and for ships that can manage the arc).


While it can technically provide damage, what it really does is mitigate damage drop off - it's not really the same thing IMO.

One of the other reasons that Nadion doesn't shine is because powers that need to be resisted are either too weak or too heavily resisted or both by PI skill or active use debuff cleanses (e-siphon, tykens, all shield "drains", etc).

The other 'drain spam" items aren't resisted properly or are too pervasive and persistent (literally always on, leech, aceton, siphon drones, polaron procs) for Nadion to create enough opening to really do anything about it.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-28-2013 at 11:21 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,432
# 60
02-28-2013, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
No, they are not.

ENG has more survivability tools, this means they can spare more of it for others.
By the same logic, they could spare more sci slots for CC or more slots for offensive abilities. You are basically arguing that because of increased survivability, an Engineer captain would be better at everything.

And that is of course nonsense. The engineer captain in space is no better healer than the tac, just a more surviveable one.
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...lM_skuv4#t=584
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