Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,330
I've mentioned this in a few threads, but I feel it deserves a thread of its own. That's the On/Off (the Yo-Yo) nature of STO when it comes to cleanses/strips.

The various cleanses and SNB are inextricably tied together, imho, and create the essence of Yo-Yo gameplay in STO. Ask yourself, would you need SNB if cleanses didn't work the way they did? Ask yourself, would you need cleanses to work as they do if SNB didn't work the way it does? Ask yourself, what would the game be like if neither SNB nor cleanses worked the way they do?

Take a player. Buff them.
Take a player. Debuff them.

Currently, it's basically a case of SNB to strip the buffs or cleanses to clear the debuffs. It's buff on/buff off or debuff on/debuff off. It's a Yo-Yo. Either you're throwing the kitchen sink at them and they're giggling because it tickles or you're throwing a handful of cotton balls at them and they're looking at the respawn button.

How often is a player sitting there with a mix of buffs and debuffs - where they may be canceling each other out - or just providing buffs in certain areas while sitting debuffed in other areas? How often does that middleground exist?

What if SNB instead of stripping all buffs were to strip a number of buffs or weaken buffs?
What if cleanses instead of clearing all debuffs were to cleanse a number of debuffs or weaken debuffs?

What if...instead of being on/off light switches - they were more like dimmer switches?

If a target still had debuffs on them - would you need to strip all buffs? Wouldn't some of the buffs be offset by the debuffs? If you weren't faced with having no buffs, would the need to remove all debuffs be as apparent? I suppose that gets into a chicken and egg discussion, eh? Did they adjust cleanses because of SNB? Did they adjust SNB because of cleanses?

It's hard to deny they've created a Yo-Yo dance, as debuffs and buffs vanish in a click of a key or the mouse.

In a game where folks spend a lot of time discussing spike damage vs. pressure damage and even spike healing vs. sustained healing...it's curious that I see so little discussion about the spike nature of buffs/debuffs. I mean, there's been discussions about how cleanses are too powerful or SNB is too powerful. They tend to be one-sided though, and get shot down by folks rather easily.

Spike damage.
Spike healing.
Spike buffs/debuffs.

All part of the Yo-Yo gameplay in STO, eh?

Will we ever meet in the middle?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
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# 2
03-02-2013, 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Ask yourself, would you need SNB if cleanses didn't work the way they did?
Most likely. Cleanses aren't the big problem. Burst healing combined with massive resists and passives are the problem.
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# 3
03-02-2013, 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Most likely. Cleanses aren't the big problem. Burst healing combined with massive resists and passives are the problem.
you could call everything added a new resist or passive too. or what i like to call them, pressure damage countermeasures
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Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 264
# 4
03-02-2013, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Most likely. Cleanses aren't the big problem. Burst healing combined with massive resists and passives are the problem.

I think that this post says it all.

I agree that the burst healing and resists are what make SNB a necessity.

I do understand what the OP is describing, I do notice a yo-yo effect. I don't think that cleanses are the big problem, tho, as I stated.

SNB is overpowered and kind of ruins game play, imo. No ability should ever purge every buff on any target. Some builds rely heavily on defensive buffs and one SNB takes a player out of the game.

However, SNB is required to work as it does due to the healing/resist issue.

Last edited by freedumb4eva; 03-02-2013 at 06:44 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,330
# 5
03-02-2013, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Most likely. Cleanses aren't the big problem. Burst healing combined with massive resists and passives are the problem.
But that's kind of the thing. Debuffs offset resists. With the ability to remove debuffs - there's nothing working against the resists. So you need SNB to clear the buffs to remove the resists.

It's that circle that I'm kind of talking about...

If a cleanse only removed some debuffs/partial cleanse instead of full cleanse - then that would damper the resists.

If you were only to do one though, everybody would start dropping like flies because they'd have the debuffs and be stripped of all their buffs. Thus, the suggestion that each only work as a partial cleanse/strip. Something to create that middle ground...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
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Captain
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# 6
03-02-2013, 07:38 PM
Let me ask this...does it ever feel like the following to anybody?

Damage is based around the target having no debuffs but being buffed to Hell.
Healing is based around the target having no buffs but being debuffed to Hell.

Thus, when the target has been stripped of buffs and debuffed... KAPOW!
Thus, when the target has all sorts of buffs and no debuffs... not a chance in Hell of KAPOW!

Too much damage.
Too much healing.

In the same game... just depending on which way that Yo-Yo is, which way the switch is...?

No doubt damage, healing, buffs/debuffs (including resistance/reduced resistance) all have to be looked at the same time for there to be any kind of balancing... my question though, is if nothing is changed about the On/Off nature of buffs/debuffs - what would changing damage/healing result in?

If you increase damage, then you'll have more KAPOW and less not a chance in Hell of KAPOW... but you risk the game turning into a space FPS - bullet to the head, you're dead. Wham, bam, and yeah...

If you increase healing, then you'll have more not a chance in Hell of KAPOW... would they change Arena to be 1 kill to try to keep the matches to a couple of hours or less?

If they address full cleanse/full strip of debuffs/buffs... then they might find the middle ground on which to base the adjustments to damage/healing...

...yeah, I know - that sounds totally backwards. I think that's a reflection of just how powerful they are in the game. They're not minor things that give an edge...but we see that every day in the difference between a buffed target and a stripped target.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
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# 7
03-02-2013, 10:24 PM
I dislike SNB because it removes all of the buffs. It's somewhat of a STO crutch to deal with what Cryptic has done in past years. I would be much more in favor of min-snb for every class that counters buffs from different class.

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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
# 8
03-02-2013, 11:07 PM
Every single mechanic in this game is binary like that by design.

You either have high defense and many shots miss or your held and get chain critted is a good example.

I have always advocated 'relative value mechanics' as they tend to work extremely well at balancing themselves and avoiding extremes like this game has pushed toward. Here is a basic example of a relative value mechanic seen in many games.

Armor Penetration %
Meaning if the target had armor reduction of say 50% and you have penetration 50% his armor is effectively 25%.

Why does this work? Simple, lets say we have two enemy types and two weapon types.

Enemy 1: 50% armor 80 HP
Enemy 2: 10% armor 130 HP

Weapon 1: 115 DMG, 50% Armor Penetration
Weapon 2: 150 DMG, 0% Armor Penetration

Against enemy 1 weapon 1 will kill in a single hit but take two hits to kill enemy 2. Weapon 2 is the opposite.

This also comes into play when one must choose between more hit points or more resistance. A choice that does not exist in STO when choosing gear most of the time.

Bah I'm tired I might try to explain this better later on but simply put.

TLDR: The game needs to be more complex and offer more options that will be better than others depending upon what the enemy is bringing to the party but not in a binary way like it currently is.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 53
# 9 Huh! EXTEND SHIELDS???!
03-03-2013, 06:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I've mentioned this in a few threads, but I feel it deserves a thread of its own. That's the On/Off (the Yo-Yo) nature of STO when it comes to cleanses/strips.

The various cleanses and SNB are inextricably tied together, imho, and create the essence of Yo-Yo gameplay in STO. Ask yourself, would you need SNB if cleanses didn't work the way they did? Ask yourself, would you need cleanses to work as they do if SNB didn't work the way it does? Ask yourself, what would the game be like if neither SNB nor cleanses worked the way they do?

Take a player. Buff them.
Take a player. Debuff them.

Currently, it's basically a case of SNB to strip the buffs or cleanses to clear the debuffs. It's buff on/buff off or debuff on/debuff off. It's a Yo-Yo. Either you're throwing the kitchen sink at them and they're giggling because it tickles or you're throwing a handful of cotton balls at them and they're looking at the respawn button.

How often is a player sitting there with a mix of buffs and debuffs - where they may be canceling each other out - or just providing buffs in certain areas while sitting debuffed in other areas? How often does that middleground exist?

What if SNB instead of stripping all buffs were to strip a number of buffs or weaken buffs?
What if cleanses instead of clearing all debuffs were to cleanse a number of debuffs or weaken debuffs?

What if...instead of being on/off light switches - they were more like dimmer switches?

If a target still had debuffs on them - would you need to strip all buffs? Wouldn't some of the buffs be offset by the debuffs? If you weren't faced with having no buffs, would the need to remove all debuffs be as apparent? I suppose that gets into a chicken and egg discussion, eh? Did they adjust cleanses because of SNB? Did they adjust SNB because of cleanses?

It's hard to deny they've created a Yo-Yo dance, as debuffs and buffs vanish in a click of a key or the mouse.

In a game where folks spend a lot of time discussing spike damage vs. pressure damage and even spike healing vs. sustained healing...it's curious that I see so little discussion about the spike nature of buffs/debuffs. I mean, there's been discussions about how cleanses are too powerful or SNB is too powerful. They tend to be one-sided though, and get shot down by folks rather easily.

Spike damage.
Spike healing.
Spike buffs/debuffs.

All part of the Yo-Yo gameplay in STO, eh?

Will we ever meet in the middle?
?it's curious that I see so little discussion about the spike nature of buffs/debuffs. I mean, there's been discussions about how cleanses are too powerful or SNB is too powerful. They tend to be one-sided though, and get shot down by folks rather easily.?

Spike debuffing is a very powerful tool in sto pvp and has always been it is all in the nature of reading the opposing teams buffs and spike defuffing the true target (or taking advantage of an opportunity if one is revealed). This can often be accomplished by wasting no snb and turning dps over time into spike like results. If you want to discuss issues let us talk trans phasic cluster or the new Romulan burn flavor. COME ON TALK ABOUT SHOT DOWN EASILY, LET US SPEAK ON EXTEND SHIELDS???!
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