Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 1 A Simple Solution for Cruisers
03-01-2013, 09:03 PM
I am sure I will get a lot of flak for even suggesting this, but this is coming from someone who flies escorts.

Like the rest of you, I have seen the endless threads and discussions about cruisers and their effectiveness, or lack thereof, in PvP. In my own personal experience, both in cruisers and escorts, It always seemed to come down to 2 things; Turn rate, and the ineffectiveness of beams. Of course my first thought, and many others, has been to buff beams and/or turn rates of cruisers. Now this gets into a slippery slope that can lead to more problems than benefits and potentially break the system in place now.

So instead of doing any of that, I propose a simple change. Change Reverse Shield Polarity to a Lt. Commander minimum rather than its current Lt. minimum.

Currently, the problem is escorts can tank nearly as well as a cruiser especially when they are running EPtSx2 and RSP.

With the lack of damage from beams, an escort can simply fly up behind the cruiser, set their impulse to one notch, and have no worries what so ever. If they double up on APO, then there is virtually nothing you can do to get them off you because you just simply won?t do enough damage to make him pull away. Beams damage so little, that it takes nearly the length of the cooldown of RSP to actually start doing any hull damage. So by the time you begin to make a dent, he hits RSP and it starts all over again.

What this change would do then is give the role of heavy tanking to cruisers. The cruiser would be able to whittle a single escort down, most likely not killing him though because he would have ample chance to escape being more agile, while making the cruiser not a complete joke.

Now yes, there are some escorts than can slot a Lt. Cmdr eng, but that I still think is acceptable. Those ships are by that description more ?tanky? than other escorts. They already sacrifice some DPS for Eng abilities, so it still works out alright in the long run. Carriers would then become the cruiser bane, which again, is how it should be IMO.

Perhaps there is room for debating putting RSP all the way up to Cmdr, but I think that would be a bit much. The other issue then is there are several KDF escorts that have all universal slots. Again though, taking a Lt Cmd Eng, they would be sacrificing some of their DPS to be able to tank which I am still ok with.

TL/DR

Reverse Shield Polarity should be switched from Lt to Lt Cmdr minimum. This gives tanking back to cruisers without buffing cruiser dmg or nerfing escort dmg.

What do you guys think?

*Braces for Impact*
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,972
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 43
# 3
03-01-2013, 10:21 PM
Just throwing this out there -- you could give cruisers access to more Doff slots. It makes sense if you consider their higher crew complement, and it could also help them to overcome some of their tactical limitations.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 4
03-01-2013, 10:24 PM
1.) This doesn't help cruisers turn better. Pathetic turning rates directly translate into everything taking more time to do, being outmaneuvered, and difficulty in gaining and keeping good firing positions.

2.) This doesn't help cruisers do more damage, not even indirectly.

3.) With its long cooldown and short active time, RevSP is an exit strategy not a survival strategy.

4.) Pure tanking is not really a necessary part of gameplay.

5.) Cruisers are already starved for high-end slots, between the absolutely amazing EPTS3, Aux2SIF, and EWP.

6.) PVP is played by a small minority of players, and basing game balance on the realities of PVP is a mistake.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 5
03-01-2013, 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post

6.) PVP is played by a small minority of players, and basing game balance on the realities of PVP is a mistake.
Oh, like there's anything to balance the game on in PvE? It's ridiculously easy and doesn't tax the extremes of the better builds out there.

Balancing using PvP as a reference is a given. It's how anything really gets balanced. And don't give me that 'PvP is a small minority of players' guff. . .it's still there, and it's better to balance with it as a reference. Besides, we should be making PvP more attractive, not less.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 6
03-01-2013, 11:56 PM
A simple solution of many problems would be to introduce diminishing return from weapon consoles.

Having 5x 30% energy weapon tac consoles on ships with 5 DHCs firing rapid fire 3 is just over the top without diminishing return.

In addition, the should be a complete overhaul of all Eng BOFs. Escpacially high power tiers are weak compared to tacs, also because they have high cooldown time or, like Aceton beam, are 90 deg. directional attacks which makes no sense at all for ships with a turn rate of 5-10.

There is a limited path at the moment which allows cruisers to be viable by using Aux2Bat with technican DOs, while mounting DEMIII with FAWIII.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 7
03-02-2013, 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
A simple solution of many problems would be to introduce diminishing return from weapon consoles.

Having 5x 30% energy weapon tac consoles on ships with 5 DHCs firing rapid fire 3 is just over the top without diminishing return.
Diminishing returns on Tac consoles could be good, provided defences were lowered accordingly across all PC and NPC ships, as well NPC damage being recalibrated to match the new lowered defenses. In theory its all meant to be balanced, but unfortunately the balance points are nowhere near what people really use. In essence you have a game balanced around the most casual of players but that also permits monster builds that break all the suppossed molds.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 9
# 8
03-02-2013, 02:27 AM
Here is a even simpler solution...build your ship better. If a escort is taking you out from behind, you got issues. Not the game...you got the ability to rsp twice also. Your a cruiser...you build your ship right your gonna be able to turn and bring your full broadsides to bear on that little guy while your shields take a beating...there's a hundred different things you can do besides just accepting defeat or a deadlock...
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 9
03-02-2013, 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
1.) This doesn't help cruisers turn better. Pathetic turning rates directly translate into everything taking more time to do, being outmaneuvered, and difficulty in gaining and keeping good firing positions.

2.) This doesn't help cruisers do more damage, not even indirectly.

3.) With its long cooldown and short active time, RevSP is an exit strategy not a survival strategy.

4.) Pure tanking is not really a necessary part of gameplay.

5.) Cruisers are already starved for high-end slots, between the absolutely amazing EPTS3, Aux2SIF, and EWP.

6.) PVP is played by a small minority of players, and basing game balance on the realities of PVP is a mistake.

See, I tried to explain the situation to you, but you have obviously missed it. It does actually help their damage, indirectly, albeit very indirectly.

When you fight an escort as a cruiser, and both are using RSP, you both essentially have 3 minutes for one of you to kill each other. Once either of you hit RSP, the fight starts all over again. The cruiser has mashed through every ability he has to survive, while the escort has just slowly turned in a circle with very minimal effort.

Taking RSP from EVERY escort and only leaving it with tanking ones, allows cruiser to be able to eventually whittle down their hull, forcing them to either retreat and come back for another pass, or blow up if they refuse to move from your flank. Beams are worthless simply because RSP undoes every ounce of work a cruiser has done to him.

My cruisers really aren't starved for slots either. For my cruiser it would mean replacing Lt RSP with Aux2SIF 1, instead of Aux2SIF 2.

PvP is only played by a small minority of players, sure I'll give you that but its no reason to discount the entire idea. This would also give cruiser their role again in PvE, making them a tank. And if you don't PvP (Guessing from your post) then you don't have a clue here, no offense. This change makes it so you don't HAVE to change the turn rate of cruiser or buff beams. It puts cruisers in their role in PvP as well as PvE. A tank that can eventually whittle down a single target in PvP, and a tank that the escorts have to rely on in PvE.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 405
# 10
03-02-2013, 04:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonh12 View Post
Here is a even simpler solution...build your ship better. If a escort is taking you out from behind, you got issues. Not the game...you got the ability to rsp twice also. Your a cruiser...you build your ship right your gonna be able to turn and bring your full broadsides to bear on that little guy while your shields take a beating...there's a hundred different things you can do besides just accepting defeat or a deadlock...
Sorry mate, I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about, but I may be wrong. Could you share your build? I would like to your super cruiser that has no issues with escorts on your butt.

By my count, my cruiser has Evasive Maneuvers, and so does the escort. I can slot APO, but so can he, so that is negligible. Aux2 Dampeners, very small turn rate increase and ruins the ability to rotate Aux2SIF which of course you know is absolutely essential to trying to survive an escort, I mean you are an expert here yes?

There is of course EPtE and Aux2 Battery of course. Again, small speed increase and shares a cool down with both of you doubling abilities being EPtS and Aux2SIF.

Oh and I forgot Engine batteries of course. Can't forget about those.

So what is it I can do avoid this acceptance of defeat? Should I Eject Warp Plasma, or Target his engines? Perhaps a tractor beam, or a repulsor? Enlighten me what I can do that isn't countered by Attack Pattern Omega and Hot Start engines.

Last edited by cha0s1428; 03-02-2013 at 04:08 AM.
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