Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,679
# 21
02-28-2013, 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnmanx View Post
All true. I've occasionally wondered if it wouldn't encourage a more positive atmosphere here on the forums if the devs actively encouraged suggestion threads; it'd reassure people that their ideas are being listened to.
But, they do. They've given us forums whose entire purpose is exactly that, and devs who are focused on specific areas are frequent contributors in the feedback forums for those areas. They've also got a person, Branflakes, who has as part of his job description making sure that feedback makes it to the devs.

Look at what the largest section of these forums is:

Feedback. By far.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,223
# 22
02-28-2013, 06:15 PM
I actually think based on what I've seen in my time here that the developers do listen to suggestions that are reasonable, if there's enough support.

A lot of proposals just won't work. It's hard to explain to people why, but they won't.

But in terms of adapting the game for the better, I don't think some are willing to give Cryptic the credit they are due. Yes, there are bugs we'd like fixed. Yes, I am somewhat frustrated (and confused) by the manner in which they run their test server. As examples.

But I do think they take feedback a lot more seriously than any number of other companies.
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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 543
# 23
02-28-2013, 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnmanx View Post
All true. I've occasionally wondered if it wouldn't encourage a more positive atmosphere here on the forums if the devs actively encouraged suggestion threads; it'd reassure people that their ideas are being listened to. Maybe even if the devs suggested things for us to brainstorm about; like if they've got something scheduled for discussion at a meeting the following week (say PvP, for example), they could post something asking the community to provide a little inspiration.

Sure, they'd probably get a lot of 'why are you wasting your time on that, when you should be fixing this?', but it might help overall.
I totally agree. The forum is a community, and as such we should not only look after each other, but we should also look towards forming a proper hand in hand association with Cryptic. If our posts are more positive, then i'm sure the Devs will take the relevant info on board.

If this is a game that we love to play, then we should be a part of it, rather than attacking it. We would all love to see improvements (even i have suggestions) and i think Cryptic already have the solution for this with their monthly "ask cryptic" session. Many gamers don't appreciate having a company which actually DOES interact with its player so directly.

I really wish for a more positive forum and more positive observations.

If someone has a suggestion, they should look at their suggestion from a developers angle. Rather than saying nerf this or buff that, they should open the issue out in a concise statement, explaining what the issue in question is, the advantages, and the disadvantages. Also, remember to keep in mind the reality. "Nerfing" or buffing doesnt take 5 mins. It takes WEEKS or even MONTHS to sort. When you change a weapon, like the Bio neural warhead for example, you have to start with the mathematics, what damage will it give to what level of player, then take all the other variables like what damage it would do with each different shieldconsole/boff/doff/module variant, how it will act to different ship hulls, if there is any splash damage to other nearby ships, and what damage do they get with different variable (like shields/consoles/modules/boffs/doffs for example. Then you have got to work this out for every ship in the game. Then you have to look at the visual design of the weapon, the visuals behind the fire/explosion. All this is just a tiny fraction of what goes into "nerfing" or buffing a weapon" Its not easy stuff, and takes many hundreds of hours in manpower to sort.

Also, remember, how many times they have indeed changed a weapon for the sake of the game, only to find that nerfing/buffing made it worse, so then they have to go back and change everything all over again.

I'm sure most forum flamers wouldn't have the patience that Cryptic has with this!

So, if anyone would like to suggest a "nerf" or a "buff", i suggest that they do the full maths for Cryptic. If you figure it all out in a quicker time than they can, then you might get hired!

Last edited by ironmako; 02-28-2013 at 06:20 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,249
# 24
02-28-2013, 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
But, they do. They've given us forums whose entire purpose is exactly that, and devs who are focused on specific areas are frequent contributors in the feedback forums for those areas. They've also got a person, Branflakes, who has as part of his job description making sure that feedback makes it to the devs.

Look at what the largest section of these forums is:

Feedback. By far.
I know, but I was thinking more endorsement of constructive threads; even if it's just someone stopping in to post 'Interesting ideas in here'. It encourages people.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 973
# 25
02-28-2013, 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoakiraii View Post
Pretty sure there is a lot of overhead from the players pockets into PWE pockets
Indeed... It flows into PWE's pockets. The developers are only going to get whatever they and PWE agreed to when they signed their employment contract. They may get a bonus her and there for this or that, but for the most part, their sallary is set in stone.

And the point I was trying to make was that in the event that profits for STO drop below PWE's ability to fund it, they will shut STO down and use it as a tax write-off. So if anyone gets this idea that by not buying Zen for STO we are somehow going to make PWE look at how the game is being developed and subsequently direct Jack to direct Dan to direct the devs to change the design direction, it won't work. If those people do put a financial squeeze on PWE, they will only ensure the death of the game, not an improvement.

PWE clearly has a specific model for all their games. CO follows it. STO follows it. Neverwinter will follow it, too. We need to accept this fact and appeal to Dan and the devs within the contect of the design model they are required to follow. STO will NEVER be the MMO that by all rights it should be. But if we work within the established parameters, we can possibly effect change that Dan and his team CAN implement without stepping outside of corporate guidelines and directives.

When Dan tells us "The buck stops here," what he is saying is that he is the highest person that our issues can be escalated to. Jack Emmert doesn't deal with customer complaints. PWE doesn't deal with them either. Dan gets to be the corporate whipping boy.

I do not work for perfect world. I can point fingers where I clearly see that the problems lay. Dan can't. If he had to go through the typical corporate paper chase when PWE took over, he signed a document that siad that the undersigned shall at all times hold the company blameless. Which means he cannot say, "It's PWE's doing!" without risking losing his job. How can I say that I can clearly see that it's PWE that needs to be pointed at as the source of problems? Consider Dan's track record under Atari, before Atari started laying people off and defunding Cryptic. He brough featured episode series to the game, which was well received. He brought a revision to sector space so it looks better without the grid and navigation lines. Under his direction, things were happening. Then Atari turned their back on Cryptic and things went downhill. Dan continued to promise things, ever hopeful that things would turn around. But they didn't. So he got a reputation as a liar who only makes empty promises. Then the PWE deal happened, followed by a concerted effort to convert to Free to Play. Now STO is subject to PWE's directives. Dan has no choice but to abide by them. He will no doubt do what he can within the bounds of corporate guidelines. But he will not point fingers. He will bear the weight of our discontent even though he has no choice but to be a good dog that rolls over and sits and lays down on command.

I do not envy him his position. I do believe he knows where the game SHOULD be going. He was trying to take it that direction before PWE came along. Now its going in a completely different direction that cannot be accounted for just by the status if STO as free to play. Dan's pre-PWE design direction does not reconcile with his post-PWE direction. That is both quantitative and qualitative.

Anyway... This post is getting too long so I'll leave it there...
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 973
# 26
02-28-2013, 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
List three MMORPGs that PWE has shut down. Remember, they bought Cryptic to get this game, this development house, and this engine. They're here because they want to be.
I didn't say they HAVE shut any of their games down. But I understand the separated-from-the-help-and-far-removed-from-the-commoners mentality that corporations like PWE embrace. It's all about the bottom line with them. If it dips into the red, someone is going to loose their job. It won't matter to them what caused the numbers to go that way. If it got bad enough to have a bottom line effect, then someone wasn't doing their job. But they never fire the ones who sit in their high throne dictating directives that fly in the face of what the customers want out of the product. I've LIVED that crap most of my working life.

Corporations fire people when things start going south. And they close branches of their operation when they get there. PWE did not want STO per se. They wanted the Cryptic Engine. It was proven to work in two MMOs both released with relatively short separation between each other. Whether STO closes or not will not change the fact that they have Cryptic's engine. They have what they want. And we have what they want us to have.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 27
02-28-2013, 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
But, they do. They've given us forums whose entire purpose is exactly that, and devs who are focused on specific areas are frequent contributors in the feedback forums for those areas. They've also got a person, Branflakes, who has as part of his job description making sure that feedback makes it to the devs.

Look at what the largest section of these forums is:

Feedback. By far.
Sorry are these the developers who admitted ignoring Tribble testers and rushing broken systems and content to the live server?.

The same devs who promised there would be Dilithium end rewards in STF's? Who refused to respond to Tribble testers who were concerned that the devs had not yet returned Dilithium end rewards to STF's before going live to Holodeck? The same devs who then proceeded to just drop the bombshell that STF's would no longer carry dilithium as an end reward for Season 7?

Give me a break, they only listen when they know something his hurting their bottom line the community was way ahead of them on that we warned them on the forum and they went on blindly ahead until eventually re-instating the rewards when the metrics showed things were going due south rapidly on STF play time.

Criticism where criticism is due.

On a more positive note at least lately they started admitting this, and that's the first step to accepting there is a problem that needs to tackled.

Last edited by thisisoverlord; 02-28-2013 at 08:22 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,060
# 28
02-28-2013, 08:13 PM
It's been my experience, thanks to numerous warnings from B-Flakes over mocking those people, that they take the "This decision is negatively effecting my gameplay" suggestions seriously.

It's the "Tailor the game to me and you'll be rich!" stuff they ignore.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 897
# 29
02-28-2013, 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by byzanathos View Post
I think pay to win comes from the comparison between the amount of time it would take to get into a Uber/kit ship free compared to how long it would take swiping your credit card.

Sure there is still stuff to do that you can't swipe your card for but by swiping your card you can still negate a HUGE amount of the grind maybe even 90%+ of it and the fact that can be done devalues the work of someone who goes through the grind to get to a similar position without paying.

When you can instantly buy something powerful that would normally take months to grind for that's pay to win. And that exists in STO
lol sry but never read something stupid like that^^ where is grinding fun? a game is supposed to be fun and not sitting around all day - which btw I assume a lot of the players here cant afford to do you know, we have jobs and families - doing probably the same stuff over and over again to eventually get so some good point in some month of actual playtime..

and then who pays for all those silver players?

STO is by far not perfect and the OP was right in saying that there are a lot of possibilities that arent used yet, maps are small and kind of empty at least the fleet events / STFs / and stuff like that, but its still much better than forcing me to grind for eternity. And still, there ARE lots of stuff you have to grind for. Just join a small fleet and get it to T5 if u are so much in need of more grinding..
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 973
# 30
02-28-2013, 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twg042370 View Post
It's been my experience, thanks to numerous warnings from B-Flakes over mocking those people, that they take the "This decision is negatively effecting my gameplay" suggestions seriously.

It's the "Tailor the game to me and you'll be rich!" stuff they ignore.
Actually, It's the community in general they ignore. It took a thread of over 2000 posts to light a fire under their butts hot enough to get them to get the initial issue resolved in the following patch, rather than over the course of the few months between then and May.

The problem is that decisions that anyone with a shred of common sense put in practice would know is only going to irritate people, and going ahead with it anyway. We're TIRED of it. That 2000+ post thread opened a lot of closets, exposing the skeletons inside.

PWE wants money from the players of STO but seems to not care one whit about what the olayers of STO want from the game that they would be willing to spend money on. The thing is though, for every 5 players who are fed up and want to see a conscious effort in Cryptic's part to grow this game, there are 15 who will plop down more money to get Zen for the new ships, or to get the Dilithium they need to progress a little further in whatever Dilithium grind they have undertaken at the moment.

Cryptic's metrics reveal that much.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
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