Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 366
# 121
03-02-2013, 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
I would like to see some evidence to show that Cryptic are not Greedy... Look around you... Bugs that have been here for almost 2-3 years have gone unfixed, a lockbox system that Cryptic refuses to post probability figures for because that would probably discourage people from getting it... I have a few more points if you are interested.

- Trying to remove a decent number of Fleet Marks because players progressing too fast. The Fleet Starbase system has been out for almost a year now.
The fleet marks awarded from the Foundry were easily exploited in their original form and easily farmed faster than official fleet content in their updated form.

Cryptic were heavy handed in removing them but the complaints would have come even if they'd released the increased FM from other sources in the same patch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
- Limited content development compared to release of new ships and profit driven items... etc... You can argue that the Dev team that develops content is not the same as the ship designers but then what is the Content Devs doing rather then twiddling their thumbs?
They're delivering the type of content they're employed to, mission content usually comes with events, featured episodes and season updates, ships come whenever they're finished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
- Ridiculous Starbase progression products. Tier 2 Military Shipyard costs 120,000 Dilithium which is hard unless you are part of a large, "faceless" Fleet.
Assuming everyone dumps their daily dilithium into the projects and gets the full 8000, you only need a fleet of 15 to match that everyday. Hardly a large faceless fleet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
- Completely Pointless Featured Projects, which continue to serve no usual purpose and are not worth the 200,000 Dilithium asked for them. They are not even worth 10,000.
Featured projects are vanity projects for larger fleets to give a source of Fleetmarks and have a visual reward at the end of it. It's not intended for every fleet to achieve them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
- Reputation Items Require Dilithium which you didn't need to get the M.A.C.O, Omega Force or Borg sets in the past.
Maybe not, but after 6 months of ESTFs and getting no prototype drops I'll happily hand over Dilithium for them.

It's hardly like Dilithium's hard to come by these days, last week I was earning nearly 10k a day without the mining claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
Not to mention, the "Stealth Nerf" to private PvP which only came in this week and was only added to the patch notes during the game downtime so that minimum people would be away of the change.
It was a last minute addition intended to prevent people from easily farming Fleet Marks, you know, the exact same reason they were so heavy handed in removing FM from the Foundry in the first place.

Not a Stealth nerf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
I am sure that lots and lots of people could offer additional reasons why Cryptic's reputation is considered to be worse then a politicians. Because they have repeatedly promised things and failed to deliver to the standard demanded by the player-base.
MMO player bases are hard to please anyway, so are Star Trek fans. As such the devs are held to unrealistic expectations anyway.

Jim Ross said it best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Ross
You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
However, I am sure if the Z-Store broke for any reason, the entire of Cryptic Studios would be straight on to fixing it.
Yes, for the exact same reason that if any businesses primary way of making money stopped working everyone capable of fixing it would drop whatever they were doing to fix it.

Cryptic are running a business, not a charity.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,679
# 122
03-03-2013, 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
The whole concept of Dilithium is Pay 2 Win, especially in terms of Fleets.
A currency that is available through ingame play is the exact opposite of Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win only applies to things where you cannot obtain either the same item, or one of very nearly comparable worth, through ingame means.

Dilithium can be acquired through play. I think your definition of Pay 2 Win is not realistic; if you're expecting that "Free 2 Play" means "this is no longer a for-profit venture, and you can't buy anything except hats and dye packs", I'm afraid there will never be a successful MMO that meets your definition.

This is a very expensive game to produce and operate.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 203
# 123
03-03-2013, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedarky View Post
The fleet marks awarded from the Foundry were easily exploited in their original form and easily farmed faster than official fleet content in their updated form.
Which Cryptic knew, and allowed anyway - then blamed the player base for 'using' it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedarky View Post
Cryptic were heavy handed in removing them but the complaints would have come even if they'd released the increased FM from other sources in the same patch.
Not nearly as bad as it was trying to sneak them out and then tell players 'tough nuts' only to, yet again, realize it was an enormous blunder and do what they should have done in the first place - bolster FM's elsewhere to compensate. They make mistakes any person with 10% control over their brain and a reasonable grasp of common sense could avoid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedarky View Post
They're delivering the type of content they're employed to, mission content usually comes with events, featured episodes and season updates, ships come whenever they're finished.
When is the last time they actually released something when it was 'finished'? Everything they release is rampant with bugs/problems and is either untested on Tribble or tested and players give feedback about said problems yet it goes to Holodeck without any changes whatsoever. Give examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedarky View Post
Featured projects are vanity projects for larger fleets to give a source of Fleetmarks and have a visual reward at the end of it. It's not intended for every fleet to achieve them.
Pointless resource sinks that do nothing for a system that really does mostly nothing in of itself other than dispense end game gear in a gated system that succinctly locks a portion of the player base out of it permanently unless they bend to Cryptic's ever changing demands upon players to play the game they want you to. Why the hell would anyone hang out on their Fleet Starbase for more than a few minutes at a time? There is **** all to do there, and the only thing people care about these 'Featured Projects' is once they are done they want a way to turn them OFF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedarky View Post
Maybe not, but after 6 months of ESTFs and getting no prototype drops I'll happily hand over Dilithium for them.

It's hardly like Dilithium's hard to come by these days, last week I was earning nearly 10k a day without the mining claims.
Every time I see someone whine about 'never getting my X piece(s)' from the old STF system I giggle. It's absurd to say you played every day or even every other day for 6 months STRAIGHT and NEVER got one piece of Tech. It's absolutely false and until we see any 'metrics' to the contrary it's mathematically impossible. I played it every day for a month and had 2/3 pieces for 2 different sets. I was not lucky either. Also finished 2 complete Borg sets just saving my EDC which is much better than paying DIL and commodities through the nose with this Rep system. I would never waste DIL on Fleet projects, or any other projects for that matter...just my choice. But again who cares if you are pulling in 10k or even 20k in DIL daily - only 8k of that is usable per 24 hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedarky View Post
It was a last minute addition intended to prevent people from easily farming Fleet Marks, you know, the exact same reason they were so heavy handed in removing FM from the Foundry in the first place.
Congratulations, you have now described a stealth nerf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedarky View Post
Cryptic are running a business, not a charity.
I'm pretty sure there's thousands of players who already know that based on the money they spent on this game.
____

The o3 - Killed you good
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 44
# 124
03-03-2013, 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kipperpie View Post
The rest is, unfortunately, almost exactly what Ben Cousins says. Oh, I hate to be the proof of Godwin's Law, especially for someone who takes such pains to show us the wacky, skateboarding, nature loving, bicycle riding people who worked at EAsy, I really do; but what we have here is the perfect example of The Banality Of Evil. The bland disassociation from consequences or meaning. The reduction of people down to metrics. It's all there, it really is.

Now as one of the 78% who never post at the forums and, apart from a purchase when I first started the game I think, haven't paid anything since, normally I'd expect to stay quiet as a crab as the temperature slowly creeps up but... But Ben honest to goodness makes the argument that the ability to get more money out of people who aren't strong enough to say "no" is a good thing. He puts a percentage figure to that minority, defines them, admits that he's aware they claim to suffer from his actions... and casually justifies exchanging their outrage for more of their money all the same.

You can draw your own parallels according to taste; The drug pusher who justifies dealing as earning him money to escape, and as long as the sold drugs stay in the run down areas he's escaping... "Sure, I know they hate themselves for doing it... but they come back to me all the same."
Domestic violence? "I hit her, but it's for her own good, if she really didn't believe that, she'd leave". Do I hear a sharp intake of breath? I hope so... and my point is, if you didn't draw that exact same breath when you heard Ben's presentation, just because it came in a respectable format and in a calm, educated voice rather than screaching hate and bile in a Xeroxed pamphlet... well your moral compass needs seriously recalibrating if you didn't gasp. Because listen to what he actually says, and he makes it quite clear that the customer states they're being abused, and he explains it doesn't matter what they say, because they keep crawling back, and no one else makes too much of a fuss about the noise they did make where it counts.
All your analogies are missing right now is Sarah McLaughlin and a montage of sad-looking dogs. Seriously, you've gone straight through a cavalcade of face-palm worthy emotional appeal complete with analogizing video games to Adolf Eichmann. Video games to the banality of industrial genocide. Hooboy.

And not once did you even stop to consider that nobody is forcing Cousins' customers at gun-point, physical-addiction-point, or physical-abuse-point to keep saying 'Yes.'

You are the customer. You have the fundamental right to say 'No.' Nobody is forcing you to say 'Yes.' If you believe the company is gouging you for Pay2Win, or in Cousins' case they're even admitting as such, then its your responsibility to either continue to play along, moderate your game play, or just walk away. If you loudly proclaim how Pay2Win blows and you'll never spend another dime on the game, and then turn around and continue to spend many dimes on the game, then that's not the publisher's problem. At some point, personal responsibility has to kick in. If you can't say No, then that's your problem too.
Cpt Dennis J. 'Denny' Kidd of the USS Emden, NCC-96415
Starfleet Privateer and Ginger Menace
'Yarr.'
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,442
# 125
03-03-2013, 11:12 AM
I've been discussing this issue with my fleet and their answer is very simple on the matter.

If you go down to the pub every Thursday with your friends and enjoy it but don't buy a drink, you can't complain when the pub closes down. You don't have to spend any money, just sit there and enjoy the ambiance but it doesn't mean the bartender will give you a free drink.

If the pub sells more than one drink or has a pool table that costs is that greedy or just trying to provide you with another method of spending your money without having to have a drink?

The difference is that when things are so OP they make even paid for things look terrible in comparison, that is where the problem lies.

AMS used to be hated because it couldn't be cleared and could be chained easily and consistently.
Aceton Assimilators and Plasmonic Leech are hated because insulators don't work on them at all.

I don't mind paying for things that might give me a little bit of a more competitive edge. (the faster, lighter bike analogy) but not something that gives a completely unfair advantage (being able to push others off their bikes.) Which is the direction that some of these consoles and ships are heading in.

That is the fine line that Cryptic are treading and should try to be aware of when they market their goods.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 233
# 126
03-03-2013, 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
A currency that is available through ingame play is the exact opposite of Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win only applies to things where you cannot obtain either the same item, or one of very nearly comparable worth, through ingame means.

Dilithium can be acquired through play. I think your definition of Pay 2 Win is not realistic; if you're expecting that "Free 2 Play" means "this is no longer a for-profit venture, and you can't buy anything except hats and dye packs", I'm afraid there will never be a successful MMO that meets your definition.

This is a very expensive game to produce and operate.
I think, with respect that is a rather dull argument. Dilithium can be acquired in game but how many things cost more then the 8k a day cap they put on Dilithium? Well not many things... the point is that Cryptic puts in this great ways of getting dilithium in game and then slaps a cap on it to stop people from developing too fast.

Presenting a much "easier" option of buying Zen and converting it into Dilthium. If they really weren't that greedy, the would make the Dilithium converted out of Zen into ORE and have to be refined under the 8k cap each day. If they were really the concerned about a play developing dilthium too fast.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 127
03-03-2013, 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post

Presenting a much "easier" option of buying Zen and converting it into Dilthium. If they really weren't that greedy, the would make the Dilithium converted out of Zen into ORE and have to be refined under the 8k cap each day. If they were really the concerned about a play developing dilthium too fast.
Correct, and smart business nous too, make people think that it's "fair" but in reality the system was always designed to pressure people to buy Dilithium with Zen. Sybe just took the marketing spiel at it's word, which is generally a really bad idea.

I would also take point with the idea that the game was expensive to produce considering that the core of the game is the engine which wasn't created for this game but modified and ported from Champions, There are a lot MMO's out there who have built their engine from scratch and that does take time and more money than porting one over. To be honest Cryptics entire behaviour has been about cutting costs and maximizing profit from the get go, releasing a beta quality game to market, taking 3 years to get it to a half finished state, introducing profit maximizing agents like lockboxes and generally ignoring bugs. Any smart business with a product that isn't that hot would do the same.

Last edited by thisisoverlord; 03-03-2013 at 03:15 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 44
# 128
03-03-2013, 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird001 View Post
I think, with respect that is a rather dull argument. Dilithium can be acquired in game but how many things cost more then the 8k a day cap they put on Dilithium? Well not many things... the point is that Cryptic puts in this great ways of getting dilithium in game and then slaps a cap on it to stop people from developing too fast.
... and to stop the Dilithium Exchange from going completely to the Dilithium farmers. But gating content is pretty important as well.

Quote:
Presenting a much "easier" option of buying Zen and converting it into Dilthium. If they really weren't that greedy, the would make the Dilithium converted out of Zen into ORE and have to be refined under the 8k cap each day. If they were really the concerned about a play developing dilthium too fast.
Right now, $10 worth of zen gets me 88000 dilithium. That's not exactly a huge rate of return there. Convert the dilithium bought to ore and the market crashes in favor of the Dilithium sellers even further.
Cpt Dennis J. 'Denny' Kidd of the USS Emden, NCC-96415
Starfleet Privateer and Ginger Menace
'Yarr.'
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,442
# 129
03-03-2013, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
Correct, and smart business nous too, make people think that it's "fair" but in reality the system was always designed to pressure people to buy Dilithium with Zen. Sybe just took the marketing spiel at it's word, which is generally a really bad idea.
And if people don't put money into the game, it stops running. You have to have a cap on the free currency conversion or you'd end up with no one buying anything ever. No purchases = no money = no game

Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
I would also take point with the idea that the game was expensive to produce considering that the core of the game is the engine which wasn't created for this game but modified and ported from Champions, There are a lot MMO's out there who have built their engine from scratch and that does take time and more money than porting one over. To be honest Cryptics entire behaviour has been about cutting costs and maximizing profit from the get go, releasing a beta quality game to market, taking 3 years to get it to a half finished state, introducing profit maximizing agents like lockboxes and generally ignoring bugs. Any smart business with a product that isn't that hot would do the same.
What would you rather? They took the game down, rebuilt the engine from scratch and got rid of all the bugs and re released it in a year or two? That would seem to be the logical answer to that.
It may have escaped your notice, but Cryptic have been taken over twice. Hard to keep a high level of performance with rapid staff turn over like that and that's just the execs...
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 130
03-03-2013, 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tc10b View Post
And if people don't put money into the game, it stops running. You have to have a cap on the free currency conversion or you'd end up with no one buying anything ever. No purchases = no money = no game


What would you rather? They took the game down, rebuilt the engine from scratch and got rid of all the bugs and re released it in a year or two? That would seem to be the logical answer to that.
It may have escaped your notice, but Cryptic have been taken over twice. Hard to keep a high level of performance with rapid staff turn over like that and that's just the execs...
You're missing the point entirely.

1] No I want people to put money into the game if you look to the left you will see I am a LTS, I have myself poured money into the game. What the other poster was saying is that if Cryptic were being honest they would only allow you to buy UNREFINED ore from the exchange.

2] Nope, I don't want that I merely stating a point of fact about the games development. Having said that even with the flawed game we have there are still improvements that can be made within the confines of the current engine and financial model that Cryptic should be exploring.
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