Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 91
# 91
03-03-2013, 07:26 AM
The new ones aren't as good as the original movies. (I hear the new Trek is supposed to be a remake of TWOK)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,943
# 92
03-03-2013, 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjamesh View Post
The new ones aren't as good as the original movies. (I hear the new Trek is supposed to be a remake of TWOK)
You think The Final Frontier is better than 09 .
Delta Rising is the best ex... oh sod it, I just want my Jupiter and Typhoon

Cryptic! Need some FREE KDF uniform options that you wont have to make? See Here.
JJ. Trek is just as canon and awesome as all other Trek, Get over it!
Unofficial Bortasq' Uniform colour guide here.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 62
# 93
03-03-2013, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
There has been some recent theoretical work done which suggests that while space may be moving, it may NOT be accelerating as previously thought. The theory goes, as I recall, that time is actually much more relative than was previously thought. So at the rim of the universe, the rate of time may be different which only makes movement APPEAR to accelerate.

Point being, applying present understanding to 25th century characters is tricky. They need to know more than we know, which calls for certain "made up" rules for things like time travel.

The most dated science in Trek generally results from cases where the writers had Trek characters' understanding of science match real world science, which was subsequently ditched.

In general, I think you need lots of analogies (time being like a river) and fantasy rules to govern Trek. And they need to sound like things that match the basic workings or outer rim of science as we know it. But you run the risk of being dated whenever you say that there is one way that things "always" or "never" work or rely too heavily on real science without having made-up science tacked on top of it. That said, as a semi-regular enthusiast of Scientific American and scholarly theoretical physics, I do like references to real science. I just think Trek should try to stay fairly neutral on whether contemporary theories are adequate or complete or true in all situations.

I'd probably be so non-committal that I'd have characters say things like:

"Hydrogen GENERALLY has one proton and no neutrons."
"Generally?"
"Well, we made a discovery in 2377 that revolutionized particle physics in very rare cases and..."
"So most of the time Hygrogen has one proton?"
"Yes. It would be unusual if it didn't."

Basically, treat no rules as universal, including ones we take for granted.
Exactly. All of Trek's science in the future, stems from 21st century principles, and things that are currently, regarded as empirical facts. Yet, over time, this can become dated. You can see some of this in the TOS episodes. Like there being a static edge to the universe, for instance. Space is actually moving away at a rate that no 21st century technology could catch it. The science fantasy of Trek then takes that fact, and extrapolates it to "well what if warp drive tech was actually fast enough to catch up to, and pass, the edge of the universe?" Then some prodigy like LaForge, reroutes the watchamajiggy, through the whosamawhats, and there you have it. Yet they are actually nebulous on a lot of aspects of science for the sake of the show, too. Like the amount of machinery, that would be needed to generate a gravity well inside a starship. Or why all starships seem to travel, and meet on the same, two dimensional, plane. Or why there is no inertia, but there is sound, in space. A lot of liberties are taken, in order to make the show exciting, because, let's face it, space travel is a stomach-cramping, exercise in boredom. None of the Treks produced have ever, adequately, addressed the distances involved in space travel. It's always "Klingon? It's over there, other side of the Neutral zone. Romulus? In the Alpha Quadrant". It's all great entertainment though. Kept me engaged for 30+ years.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 62
# 94
03-03-2013, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thlaylierah View Post
LOL OK STO does currently support the old series, kind of, but how long do you think that would last if Paramount offered Cryptic the resources from the movie at a reasonable cost?

Instant T6 Connie and everyone would be flying it.

However in the non MMO world where everyone else lives, JJ Trek is THE Star Trek now.

No amount of explaining or facts will take away the fact that JJ's movies are the only currently running series there is.

As for an argument, this is a Trekker forum, we call them "discussions."
Your word, not mine.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,775
# 95
03-03-2013, 09:03 AM
Trek encompasses both extra-dimensional travel, and time travel. As the OP rightly points out, the instances Trek has shown of time travel have shown alteration of their timeline, not creation of alternate universes... (The Enterprise-E was, to quote Data "caught in the temporal wake, which somehow protected (us) from the changes in the timeline", much like how Kirk and Spock were protected from the changes in the timeline by being near the Guardian of Forever (What might be referred to as a Fixed Point in Time ) Yes, Nero's time travel should have affected the Primeline, not created an alternate universe. However... It was stated that they were in an alternate universe (as mentioned, so JJ can just use the 'a Wizard did it' cop out for all the plot holes) and that might have been because the travel was through a singularity (possibly a dimensional barrier in addition to a temporal one) rather than simply 'swimming upstream' of the Primeline, as past instances of time-travel had been, so we can accept that the events of the JJ Verse were indeed another alternate dimension, and that STO is a continuation of the Primeline 30 years + from the events of Voyager... A quicker way of saying it, would be f**K JJ and the self-indulgent schlock he calls film-making
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,775
# 96
03-03-2013, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by artan42 View Post
You think The Final Frontier is better than 09 .
I think that the story of the Final Frontier is better than 09. Had it been filmed as an episode of ToS, it would have been fantastic, it was let down by the embarasing shenanigans of a bunch of geriatrics doddering round the universe as if they were in their 30s... (which was also what let Nemesis down... Which equally would have made a great Season Seven episode, and arguably, a better finale than All Good Things...)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,249
# 97
03-03-2013, 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
Personally I don't believe in alternate realities because I don't believe in free will. Without free will there is no such thing as choice and without choice you don't generate alternate realities.

I believe in cause and effect. A condition in which free will is an illusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
Cause and effect negates the possibility of options.
Never understood that position.

A man is offers to give his friend mint or chocolate. The friend is hungry, and has no qualms about accepting the generosity of others; furthermore, the friend likes chocolate, but does not like mint. So the friend accepts the chocolate.

The option to do something else existed, the friend just didn't have any reason to take that option.

Or to put it another way, even when the outcome of a choice is inevitable, a choice is still made.

Anyway, on topic. The parallel universes Worf travelled through in 'Parallels' were referred to as 'quantum realities'; and were marked by unique quantum signatures. That makes them the very thing talked about in the 'Many Worlds Interpretation' of quantum mechanics.

So long as those can be said to exist in the Star Trek universe, then it follows that a time travel event is going to result in the creation of a new one; since 'Nero travelling back in time and destroying the USS Kelvin' is just adding a new possibility that will play out in its own separate quantum space. Equally, it follows that the 'original' timeline didn't involve time travelling humpback whales, Borg trying to prevent first contact with the Vulcans, or Data's head in a cave (unless a predestination paradox is a means of getting around that particular issue).

In fact, we haven't probably seen the 'original' timeline since the very first time travel episode; but it would still exist.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 98
03-03-2013, 10:17 AM
This is one of those threads where the OP has a problem and answers their own problem in their first post.

The OP mentions Quantum Universe theory, where at any single point in time there are an infinite number of possibilities, and a separate universe for every one of those possibilities. In that regard, time travel is itself a possibility that can create a new universe.

Those of us who reject the JJ Universe generally reject the universes that arose from the possibility of time travel. We prefer the pure, untouched "Prime" universe that is unpolluted by the possibilities of time travel.

So yes, OP. The JJ Universe is a separate Trek Universe. You actually can't consolidate all Trek series and all Trek movies into one single Universe of canon. The JJ Universe arose from time travel. The ENT Universe also arose from time travel. The end of Voyager results in a new Universe as a result of time travel, however Voyager begins in the Prime Universe. There are even instances of time travel in the other series, but those almost always end up getting corrected somehow, like Tasha Yar and the battle at Narendra in TNG.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 649
# 99
03-03-2013, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
This is one of those threads where the OP has a problem and answers their own problem in their first post.

The OP mentions Quantum Universe theory, where at any single point in time there are an infinite number of possibilities, and a separate universe for every one of those possibilities. In that regard, time travel is itself a possibility that can create a new universe.

Those of us who reject the JJ Universe generally reject the universes that arose from the possibility of time travel. We prefer the pure, untouched "Prime" universe that is unpolluted by the possibilities of time travel.

So yes, OP. The JJ Universe is a separate Trek Universe. You actually can't consolidate all Trek series and all Trek movies into one single Universe of canon. The JJ Universe arose from time travel. The ENT Universe also arose from time travel. The end of Voyager results in a new Universe as a result of time travel, however Voyager begins in the Prime Universe. There are even instances of time travel in the other series, but those almost always end up getting corrected somehow, like Tasha Yar and the battle at Narendra in TNG.
How is star trek enterprise arose from time travel? It is set in the prime verse of star trek and it was not created from time travel it self like the JJ-verse or the last episode of voyager. Enterprise is set after 100 years of cochrane warp flight and before TOS.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,120
# 100
03-03-2013, 10:23 AM
It has been explained in Trek, that a timeline that has been altered from the viewer's standpoint constitutes a parallel universe, again stop ignoring the rules set down in TNG Parallels.

Just because an altered timeline (from the viewer's standpoint) shares the same past as our timeline does not mean it is all the same timeline. From our stand point, the altered timeline does not exist after its significant difference is restored, however, that timeline or universe, still exists and goes on. A whole series of Trek Anthologies is based on this concept.


So that means, the Enterprise-E was meant go back in the past, just like Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were meant to go back to the 1930s for our timeline. In other timelines (universes), they still failed and Earth is assimilated and the US does not enter WWII still exist.

There is no evidence that the Borg sphere altered the Prime Universe by being discovered by Arctic One. As a viewer, we were not given enough evidence that there is any changes at all. The Borg sphere was meant to be found in the Prime Universe. There is no such thing as the ENT Universe.

Last edited by eldarion79; 03-03-2013 at 10:26 AM.
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