Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,182
# 61
03-02-2013, 11:48 AM
This is why thy rebooted Trek because fans and their canon, which is why Enterprise even though it was pretty good fans could not handle the canon problems.

If you go and listen to the First Contact commentary on the DVD you will find out that no matter what Trek was heading towards a reboot because they were sick and tired of canon problems., and wanted top tell a story.

Besides the JJ universe dose not effect the prime universe, every Trek DVD is not going to change.....Trek works that way but not real live....your DVD series are safe from time travel.

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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,859
# 62
03-02-2013, 12:09 PM
Dealing with a few points here:

As mentioned before, multiple slightly-variant universes are canon - TNG episode "Parallels", in which an accident leaves Worf sliding through timelines; in many of them, he's married to Deanna Troi. Therefore, Nero traveling to the past and attempting to alter it would indeed lead to an alternate timeline, as the one he departed obviously did not include an attack on the USS Kelvin by a mysterious atemporal Romulan ship. (In fact, it strikes me as odd that nobody on the Kelvin's bridge was shocked at seeing a Romulan - it was established in TOS that the entire war was conducted without anybody from the Federation even seeing a Romulan corpse. The treaty was negotiated by subspace radio, no video.)

Hydrogen is an element; its distinguishing characteristic is that it has only one proton, and no neutrons. Its stable form has one electron; there are two known ionic forms, with two and three electrons respectively. If it has more than one proton, it's not hydrogen, it's some other element, and won't behave the way hydrogen does.

The original timeline is still supported - we're playing a game set in it. (If you haven't reached the Romulan missions yet, you'll find they even contain an explanation for how a supernova in one star system could propagate effects faster than light, and destroy a planet in another system. It's not a pretty explanation, but it is internally consistent...) We're almost certainly never going to see another movie or TV show set in it, which is a pity, because I was trying to get someone in Hollywood to pitch a series following the adventures of a long-range exploration vessel in the Gamma Quadrant, seeing what things were like there since the Founders withdrew to the Great Link.

Arguing free will is pointless - if you don't believe in it, then my disagreement with you is not something that I can change (since changing that implies I have the free will to choose my position), and therefore you can't possibly change my position through discussion. And you will discount any arguments I make as the inevitable result of the influences that make up what appears to be my mind. I see no logic in arguing a point which admits of no reasoning.
-------------------------------------------
I'm old enough not to care too much about what you think of me --
But I'm young enough to remember the future, the way things ought to be...

- Rush, "Cut To the Chase", Counterparts

Last edited by jonsills; 03-02-2013 at 12:13 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,731
# 63
03-02-2013, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by merryprankster2 View Post
Oh... O.K. How's this sound then:

You're wrong. STO is Star Trek, and yes, it's currently supported. And it has nothing to do with Paramount, or J.J. Abrams.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise there was an argument.
LOL OK STO does currently support the old series, kind of, but how long do you think that would last if Paramount offered Cryptic the resources from the movie at a reasonable cost?

Instant T6 Connie and everyone would be flying it.

However in the non MMO world where everyone else lives, JJ Trek is THE Star Trek now.

No amount of explaining or facts will take away the fact that JJ's movies are the only currently running series there is.

As for an argument, this is a Trekker forum, we call them "discussions."
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 208
# 64
03-02-2013, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
Arguing free will is pointless - if you don't believe in it, then my disagreement with you is not something that I can change (since changing that implies I have the free will to choose my position), and therefore you can't possibly change my position through discussion.
Your conclusion is a common misconception. The absence of free will would not mean your position on something on an issue can't change, it would just mean you have no control over it. And unless you can somehow predict the future, it makes no real difference anyway, because the illusion of free still exists.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,352
# 65
03-02-2013, 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by radkip View Post
An alternate universe exists, yes. Technically thousands do.

I subscribe to the alternate universe where Sisko returns from the wormhole, travels through time and punches JJ Abrams in the face to prevent his movies from ever being created. That is the universe that is canon to me.
That works.

If you don't like JJTrek, you can choose to live in an alternate reality in which it doesn't exist.

Just like I choose to live in an alternate reality in which George Lucas died in 1989.


"I won't try to hide behind the Law if what I stand for is what's Right."

The Masterverse Timeline / Ten Forward Fanfics
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 38
# 66
03-02-2013, 01:51 PM
No where is it written in stone that anyone has to acknowledge that the JJ movies even exist. Simply ignore their existence and everything you know and love about Star Trek is safe and sound. Just like my Mom does with The Alien series, Newt and Ripley are safely home on Earth and the Third movie NEVER HAPPENED...EVER!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 67
# 67
03-02-2013, 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sopwithsnipe View Post
Of course you have nothing further to say because the existance of alternate universes in Star Trek is so easily proven and absolutely nothing you can say will refute their existance.

Every episode involving the Mirror Universe storyline

In a Mirror Darkly pts I & II
Mirror Mirror
The Tholian Web
Crossover
Thru the Looking Glass
Shattered Mirror
Resurrection
The Emperor's New Cloak

TNG Episode Parallels where a subspace fissure has thousands of Enterprises from alternate timelines/universes appearing.

Voyager introduced Species 8472 from the alternate timeline/universe containing fluidic space

So JJtrek exists as an alternate timeline/universe, but feel free to deny it. We find your self delusions entertaining.
Who is talking about parallel Universes, all the episodes you mentioned are from a parallel universe called the Mirror Universe. Fluidic space is an Alternate/extra Dimension so a different entity entirely.

Nero did not swap dimensions he did not exist in a parallel Universe before time travelling he travelled from the future into the past and effected a change in the past and in every Star Trek canon before that changes in the past changed the present and we as the omniscient viewer witnessed the change whether the characters were aware of it or not.
As I said JJ wanted to cheap out, couldn't be bothered learning the lore or familiarising himself with the franchise and he did not want people poking continuity holes in his cash cow so he came up with a pithy excuse that does not even hold. It reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where Lucy Lawless in answer to a fan question regarding a plot hole replies "Every time you see something like that, A wizard did it" JJ would have had more credibility if he said "A wizard did it" or better still "Q did it!"

Last edited by kaaahhhhhnnnnn; 03-02-2013 at 05:18 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,557
# 68
03-02-2013, 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
Hydrogen is an element; its distinguishing characteristic is that it has only one proton, and no neutrons. Its stable form has one electron; there are two known ionic forms, with two and three electrons respectively. If it has more than one proton, it's not hydrogen, it's some other element, and won't behave the way hydrogen does.
I am aware of all that and am saying that future science may have a more nuanced view of very basic things like the periodic table and gravity.

For example, two protons entangled across universes that form a single atom with an atomic weight of 1 in each universe or something. That's one idea. The whole point of what I'm suggesting is that I think characters in sci-fi should shoot down things that we take for granted as hard fact without explaining why present day understanding is flawed or incomplete.

I hold that sci-fi needs to be inexplicable and contradictory to real world knowledge in certain respects to create room for new discoveries.

I would have a future where anything we know present day is seen as generalization.

If you say that Hydrogen has one proton or that the Gravity of Earth exerts a force of 9.8 meters per second or that there are eight planets in the solar system, I'd give characters in the future the wiggle room for science or events that could alter their worldview. Maybe they have an artificial 9th and 10th planet. Maybe they redefine the term planet to only refer to planets with a physical surface, in which case the term would no longer apply to several bodies we currently consider planets.

So when using present knowledge, always suggest that it is flawed or incomplete and never define HOW it is flawed or incomplete. When introducing new concepts, make sure that they do not connect with or are not perfectly understandable using 21st century science.

Always imply that people in the future know things which undermine, challenge, expand on, or contradict what we presently know.

If even the most obvious or accepted thing gets treated as hard fact in sci-fi, there's too much room for it to become dated.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,557
# 69
03-02-2013, 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaahhhhhnnnnn View Post
Who is talking about parallel Universes, all the episodes you mentioned are from a parallel universe called the Mirror Universe. Fluidic space is an Alternate/extra Dimension so a different entity entirely.

Nero did not swap dimensions he did not exist in a parallel Universe before time travelling he travelled from the future into the past and effected a change in the past and in every Star Trek cannon before that changes in the past changed the present and we as the omniscient viewer witnessed the change whether the characters were aware of it or not.
As I said JJ wanted to cheap out, couldn't be bothered learning the lore or familiarising himself with the franchise and he did not want people poking continuity holes in his cash cow so he came up with a pithy excuse that does not even hold. It reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where Lucy Lawless in answer to a fan question regarding a plot hole replies "Every time you see something like that, A wizard did it" JJ would have had more credibility if he said "A wizard did it" or better still "Q did it!"
I strongly lean towards the idea that the Mirror Universe was created via time travel.

Or perhaps the Prime Universe is an offshoot of the Mirror Universe, created by time travel.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,859
# 70
03-02-2013, 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaahhhhhnnnnn View Post
Who is talking about parallel Universes, all the episodes you mentioned are from a parallel universe called the Mirror Universe.
Not exactly. In "Parallels", mentioned in that post, not one of the universes Worf slid through was the famed Mirror Universe. He lived in a number of worlds where Picard was lost to the Borg and he was first officer of the Enterprise under Capt. Riker; IIRC, the last one he was in was one where Riker was killed fighting Locutus, and Worf was captain. They also got a short look at an Enterprise from a timeline where the Borg won, and the poor ship was a near-hulk, one of the few remaining free ships in that Milky Way galaxy. (Short, because when that Riker, half-crazed as he was, heard that they would have to return to their own universe in order to heal the subspace rift, he went completely around the bend and opened fire on the other Enterprises to stop them. Several of them returned fire; it turned out the firing ship had no shields left to speak of.)

So, as I said, the idea of multiple timelines was already Trek canon; Orci and Kurtzman (the writers - Abrams was the producer/director) merely took advantage of this fact. I still dislike the ending - it should have had Kirk promoted to Ensign as a reward, followed by a montage of Kirk's promotions and assignments, until finally Capt. Kirk took command once more of the Enterprise - but the basic concept itself does not violate Star Trek canon.
-------------------------------------------
I'm old enough not to care too much about what you think of me --
But I'm young enough to remember the future, the way things ought to be...

- Rush, "Cut To the Chase", Counterparts
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