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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 61
05-06-2013, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dummyname View Post
If only he'd spent his money on charisma instead of foot pedals...

Charisma doesn't keep Escorts alive in premade matches, but hot-keying ally select to your feet just might.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,059
# 62
05-06-2013, 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Charisma doesn't keep Escorts alive in premade matches, but hot-keying ally select to your feet just might.
So it's not my MT hax that keep me alive?

**** I want my money back.
Ensign
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5
# 63
05-07-2013, 03:41 AM
There is nothing new in the guide, almost any long standing successful group will tell you the same, except without being so verbose about it.

There are successful military styled groups that play multiple games but they tend to gain and lose players outside officer positions, particularly if those players have not been in any sort of military structure, people that have seem to like that environment and they do well in the games they adopt. AOD is an example of a successful group, though I do not think they play this. So this is not the only method, but is it for most of us nerds less stressful.

On the other side it is easy to be magnanimous about your attitude about gaming when you are winning all the time and those wins are easy. When a group of good players who game together a lot are successful and you visit their vent you will not hear them calling targets or requesting help. The reason is they are so much better than the rest they are never under any pressure in the first place. Under these conditions you might hear them talking about other games, new films, and the very occasional, 'anyone have a science team?'

If you are constantly getting beat it can be frustrating, if you are getting beat by everyone, that is more frustrating than only getting beat by a few, if you only get beat by one then you can see that as a goal to overcome to become the best.

However not even the Pandas are immune to strife, just as SW, DOB, SEC31 were not and TSI are not at certain points, particularly I would imagine at the point of transition.

When a fleet/guild is on the decline as players inevitably leave maintaining your position becomes difficult, not being as good as you were while the better players remaining have gravitated to another group you find yourself under pressure, then the cracks will show.

QEW had a strong team, their 5 man team was second only to one other 5 man team (contrary to popular belief this was a 5 man team made up of players not affiliated with one fleet, though it was commonly considered a TSI group) they eventually left for another games, I guess it didn't go so well and that strong bond that helped them in STO broke and they split, the difference between being at the top and suddenly finding you are not the best and not liking it, and blaming each other to the point the gaming friendships were lost.

These guides are only written by people that are at the stage of being successful, when success becomes easy, they are written as if it was always so and always will be, but this is not quite so true.

This guide is not the only key to being successful, it is more simply a life style choice while successful, and one that works quite well for nerds. It helps with friendships as those tend to come about when you are not at each other throats looking to blame each other. On the flip of that, the fleets that at one point would all have said the same are full of players who are the better players of the time, so they are already good players and newbie frustrating mistakes that lead to a loss just don't happen.

If you have a group of friends that are already like this together, do not assume success will follow, it wont, success comes from a desire to play well, from accepting you are not doing something well and seeking to do better, either through trial and error or by asking. Reading and asking are not enough of course, you have to come to own the information, asking what is your rotation will not make you a good player, you have to understand why things are done they way they are, the understanding not the parroting will eventually make you a good player. This guide will only help in making that environment easier to learn in as it is difficult to learn when you are constantly bickering and blaming.

Tho bickering and blaming will happen, as there is no utopia.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 876
# 64
05-07-2013, 04:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
There is nothing new in the guide, almost any long standing successful group will tell you the same, except without being so verbose about it.
Sure, and those groups don't need help -- though an occasional reminder isn't going to hurt. Groups that haven't figured this out yet are unlikely to be converted in a couple sentences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
There are successful military styled groups that play multiple games but they tend to gain and lose players outside officer positions, particularly if those players have not been in any sort of military structure, people that have seem to like that environment and they do well in the games they adopt. AOD is an example of a successful group, though I do not think they play this. So this is not the only method, but is it for most of us nerds less stressful.
In my experience there are games where militaristic groups can do quite well, and games where they are not well suited. A realistic military simulation being at one extreme, and a game like STO being at the other. The sheer amount of variation coupled with a constantly evolving meta favors a structure that fosters creativity and adaptability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
On the other side it is easy to be magnanimous about your attitude about gaming when you are winning all the time and those wins are easy.
That's why my philosophy is based on a case study of an underdog group that rose to the top purely on attitude. If I didn't have real world confirmation I wouldn't have made this guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
When a group of good players who game together a lot are successful and you visit their vent you will not hear them calling targets or requesting help. The reason is they are so much better than the rest they are never under any pressure in the first place. Under these conditions you might hear them talking about other games, new films, and the very occasional, 'anyone have a science team?'
Depends what they're doing, really. If they're playing another team they'll be communicating more than if they're killing helpless pugs. This is common sense, and I don't see the relevance to the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
If you are constantly getting beat it can be frustrating, if you are getting beat by everyone, that is more frustrating than only getting beat by a few, if you only get beat by one then you can see that as a goal to overcome to become the best.
Fortunately the barrier between "getting beat by everyone" to "only beat by a few" is pretty easy to pass in this game, due to the general terribleness of the playerbase. "Getting beat by a few" to "Getting beat by only one" is the more difficult jump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
However not even the Pandas are immune to strife, just as SW, DOB, SEC31 were not and TSI are not at certain points, particularly I would imagine at the point of transition.
No group is immune to strife and drama, but you can attempt to minimize their effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
When a fleet/guild is on the decline as players inevitably leave maintaining your position becomes difficult, not being as good as you were while the better players remaining have gravitated to another group you find yourself under pressure, then the cracks will show.
At certain points SP has had rather high turnover. It's always going to be an obstacle, but I'd like to think our structure has allowed us to weather those points a lot better than other groups have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
These guides are only written by people that are at the stage of being successful
I wouldn't want to read a guide from someone not successful

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
when success becomes easy, they are written as if it was always so and always will be, but this is not quite so true.
Getting SP to the stage it is at now certainly wasn't easy. The key to growth is to establish a system of constant improvement. The goal of this guide is to make that process as painless and clear cut as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
If you have a group of friends that are already like this together, do not assume success will follow, it wont, success comes from a desire to play well, from accepting you are not doing something well and seeking to do better, either through trial and error or by asking. Reading and asking are not enough of course, you have to come to own the information, asking what is your rotation will not make you a good player, you have to understand why things are done they way they are, the understanding not the parroting will eventually make you a good player. This guide will only help in making that environment easier to learn in as it is difficult to learn when you are constantly bickering and blaming.
It almost sounds like you simply skimmed my guide, because I go over everything you've just said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
Tho bickering and blaming will happen, as there is no utopia.
No, but the point is you can minimize the ugly stuff to a great extent.
Behold, The Jorf Guide

Last edited by hurleybird; 05-07-2013 at 04:49 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5
# 65
05-07-2013, 06:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Depends what they're doing, really. If they're playing another team they'll be communicating more than if they're killing helpless pugs. This is common sense, and I don't see the relevance to the topic.
Not really what I am referring to. When good top fleets will eventually attract the better players, that just happens over time, eventually you want to attract the good players to maintain your position.

A point can be reached where there are not enough good players to be a challenge in the game, and you really don't need to call targets vs anyone.

I recall one match vs TSI in my 5 man KDF group where we beat them as easily they might a pug group, one even said they wouldn't fight us again as a group as they never wanted to be spanked that badly again. During that match we spent so much time laughing, we did call a name now and then, but only to make sure we didn't miss anyone. So no, you wont hear target calling unless it is an extremely close fight and eventually I think that becomes rare enough not to be an factor in your vent.

Under those conditions you generate much less stress as individuals and as a team. Less stress and it is easier to have a calmer time, and as your post is about fostering a calm atmosphere I think it has a good deal of relevance.

While we play for recreation these games can be as stressful as working when you feel things are not going well, vent chat is a good indicator of that


Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
No group is immune to strife and drama, but you can attempt to minimize their effects.

At certain points SP has had rather high turnover. It's always going to be an obstacle, but I'd like to think our structure has allowed us to weather those points a lot better than other groups have.

Getting SP to the stage it is at now certainly wasn't easy. The key to growth is to establish a system of constant improvement. The goal of this guide is to make that process as painless and clear cut as possible.


No, but the point is you can minimize the ugly stuff to a great extent.
It is for me the chicken and the egg, yes you have it good, but if it wasn't always so and you had a high turn over then there must have been problems, of what ever sort, which prevents the establishment of good cohesive play.

Having very skilled players takes away some of the problems, players who are not as skilled for what ever reason but who are competitive will become frustrated, with themselves and each other. PvP'ers really only sing when they are winning, a loss now and then is ok, but string them together long enough and problems will arise. We know that calm chatter is important in tough fights, we know getting distracted in those fights leads to mistakes, as does worrying about what your team mates are doing. The more skill your team has the less those mental distractions assert themselves

What you describe will happen, but more often than not it will come at the end of the cycle and not so much at the beginning.

I agree with your assertion that to be truly successful this is what you should aim to evolve towards, particularly if you want to game for any length of time.

However, I disagree that at least for a pvp orientated group that wants to be in the top flight with high expectations, which your guide is referring to, it is something that should be sought to be achieved in the beginning. it like many things will come in its own time naturally when you finally have the right group of people together at the right level for your collective goal, before that I think would be more difficult to try to attain this atmosphere before its natural time than teaching me to do a back flip on a BMX.

Only if you are happy with where you are in the game can you do it. I am sure there are a number of casual fleets that have a similar atmosphere, because they have a nice group with similar goals and the required ability to achieve them

As for the 'ugly' stuff, if someone is at that stage then regardless you should consider cutting them. There is never a need for outright nastiness regardless of ability, most gamers should act with some level of common courtesy even when you disagree or make mistakes.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,674
# 66
05-07-2013, 06:49 AM
Holy non-sequitur!


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Ensign
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5
# 67
05-07-2013, 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
Holy non-sequitur!
ok I will bite this last time, how does it not follow, what we have here is a guide to what Jorf believes is the optimum office culture for pvp. I have not claimed it isn't, it is a culture that is required for any online friends to remain friends for any reasonable amount of time.

I have disputed you can have enough influence to 'create' the office culture he talks about deliberately as the foundation for success. That type of culture comes from already being successful with a group of players you got along well enough to stick together long enough with to become a good team. The people, the skills, the culture.

It is practically impossible to force that ahead of its time, you could have rules, but tbh those will only take you so far and will be broken eventually you have to kick people or they leave.

Claiming you need to get the office culture right first is just wrong as it is simply not possible.

I do not know who you are but I sure hope you can pvp better than you can post, because no effort or thought went into the post
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,674
# 68
05-07-2013, 08:08 AM
Holy non-sequitur!

And thanks for Jorf for taking the time to making such a useful thread.

We need more useful insight like this in these forums. It's a cut above the usual nonsense.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 876
# 69
05-07-2013, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
Not really what I am referring to. When good top fleets will eventually attract the better players, that just happens over time, eventually you want to attract the good players to maintain your position.

A point can be reached where there are not enough good players to be a challenge in the game, and you really don't need to call targets vs anyone.
We try to recruit based on attitude, not skill. We've even recruited PvErs who have hardly touched PvP.

You're right that things usually work the other way though. Maybe I'll add a section on recruiting into the guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
So no, you wont hear target calling unless it is an extremely close fight and eventually I think that becomes rare enough not to be an factor in your vent.
Depends on culture I suppose. Some groups will call even when it's not really needed just to maintain the practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
While we play for recreation these games can be as stressful as working when you feel things are not going well, vent chat is a good indicator of that
Certainly, and nobody is perfect. It is a skill you can work on though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
It is for me the chicken and the egg, yes you have it good, but if it wasn't always so and you had a high turn over then there must have been problems, of what ever sort, which prevents the establishment of good cohesive play.
Not going to lie and say we haven't had our problems, but the turnover I was referring to was mainly just people leaving to play other games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
PvP'ers really only sing when they are winning, a loss now and then is ok, but string them together long enough and problems will arise. We know that calm chatter is important in tough fights, we know getting distracted in those fights leads to mistakes, as does worrying about what your team mates are doing. The more skill your team has the less those mental distractions assert themselves
That's the reason you move the goalpost away from winning to simply improving as much as you are able to. It's not going to magically undue all of your human flaws, but it helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
I disagree that at least for a pvp orientated group that wants to be in the top flight with high expectations, which your guide is referring to, it is something that should be sought to be achieved in the beginning. it like many things will come in its own time naturally when you finally have the right group of people together at the right level for your collective goal, before that I think would be more difficult to try to attain this atmosphere before its natural time than teaching me to do a back flip on a BMX.
Did you read the entire guide?

"Be sure to set your sight on the right target. Measuring your team up to the top fleets in the game could prove discouraging -- it's possible for your group to improve several times before getting a single point on the scoreboard. Rather, pick more realistic targets that are more at your level -- the fiercest competitions don't take place against mismatched opponents, but against equals."

Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
As for the 'ugly' stuff, if someone is at that stage then regardless you should consider cutting them. There is never a need for outright nastiness regardless of ability, most gamers should act with some level of common courtesy even when you disagree or make mistakes.
True, I might write a section on when that becomes necessary.
Behold, The Jorf Guide
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 876
# 70
05-07-2013, 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baibaoyun View Post
I have disputed you can have enough influence to 'create' the office culture he talks about deliberately as the foundation for success. That type of culture comes from already being successful with a group of players you got along well enough to stick together long enough with to become a good team. The people, the skills, the culture.

It is practically impossible to force that ahead of its time, you could have rules, but tbh those will only take you so far and will be broken eventually you have to kick people or they leave.

Claiming you need to get the office culture right first is just wrong as it is simply not possible.
Pandas created the office culture first. The majority of us were previously in a fleet with a bad culture. That fleet didn't magically change to a better culture as the players in it progressed -- it slowed down progress and formed a glass ceiling we couldn't get past.

The culture is the foundation, you shouldn't strive for a weak foundation that needs to be rebuilt later. A strong foundation benefits everything that is built on top of it.

Look at TSI, as Matteo told has now told me on a few occasions they never set out to be a top dog PvP fleet -- it 'just happened'. That's an example of a group with a strong foundation. Skill in PvP wasn't a prerequisite, but a relaxed friendly atmosphere is a prerequisite for a strong premade team.
Behold, The Jorf Guide
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