Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 144
# 21
03-14-2013, 12:34 AM
The Jem'hadar dreadnought size is way too small with DS9 being too big. The dreadnought should roughly been a few meters longer in length than the diameter of DS9 .

I really wish it could have been at least a little bigger. Even though the canon ship sizes are somewhat fubar, I still think that the lore of the ship demands it to have slightly more presence. It drives me nuts that my Vo'quv is larger than my Dreadnought lol (using parts from both Vo'Quv ships).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 867
# 22
03-14-2013, 12:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
Not true, because re-scaling models takes significant amounts of time. If you had to mess with size, you do that in the planning and prototype modeling stages when creating the models.

The simple thing to do is either change a model's position or change camera positions.
I'm not a graphics artist and I never worked for the company that handled the CGI models for the later Star Trek TV shows, but I am extremely skeptical that scaling a model up or down relative to another model takes anything more than a couple of keystrokes. Even if I am in error, it is pretty clear that on the show, that is exactly what they did in certain cases.

The fact is, CGI model or not, in your final screen shot, unless you know that two ships are shown at equal distances from the camera (such as they are both on the surface of a planet next to eachother), all you can establish is the minimum size of one ship relative to another, and that is only if one passes directly in front of the other, otherwise you have no way of even knowing which ship is larger.

Take this shot for instance: http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/8905/320x240alz7.jpg

Since the Defiant passes directly over the Lakota, you know that the Defiant cannot be much bigger than half the saucer section, but you do not know if it is a big ship scraping the hull of the Lakota or an inch long and manned by Leprechauns.

As you may know, the Defiant's size seems inconsistent throughout the show and knowing the value they used in the CGI software for each shot (if they had used CGI from the beginning) would not be likely to fix that problem.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,006
# 23
03-14-2013, 01:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalspock View Post
I'm not a graphics artist and I never worked for the company that handled the CGI models for the later Star Trek TV shows, but I am extremely skeptical that scaling a model up or down relative to another model takes anything more than a couple of keystrokes. Even if I am in error, it is pretty clear that on the show, that is exactly what they did in certain cases.

The fact is, CGI model or not, in your final screen shot, unless you know that two ships are shown at equal distances from the camera (such as they are both on the surface of a planet next to eachother), all you can establish is the minimum size of one ship relative to another, and that is only if one passes directly in front of the other, otherwise you have no way of even knowing which ship is larger.

Take this shot for instance: http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/8905/320x240alz7.jpg

Since the Defiant passes directly over the Lakota, you know that the Defiant cannot be much bigger than half the saucer section, but you do not know if it is a big ship scraping the hull of the Lakota or an inch long and manned by Leprechauns.

As you may know, the Defiant's size seems inconsistent throughout the show and knowing the value they used in the CGI software for each shot (if they had used CGI from the beginning) would not be likely to fix that problem.
Dude, that was not CGI. Those were Studio Models.

They didnt' start using CGI until Season 5 of DS9 / Season 3 of Voyager.
NO to ARC!

Season 9.5 = STO's NGE is Here! Welcome to the Grind!

New Crafting = It's not Crafting, is an overblown Reputation System.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,660
# 24
03-14-2013, 01:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dm19delta View Post
I noticed this at DS9 today, although I'm not sure why I didn't notice it sooner because I used to frequent DS9 quite often, but here it is.

Sovereign/DS9 size comparison

Here is a couple of shots from the shows

Enterprise D docking at DS9

Defiant docking at DS9

Here is a size comparison chart of Federation ships

Comparison chart

The last chart shows the size difference between the Defiant and Sovereign classes. The photo from in-game shows my Sovereign easily able to fit into one of the docking bays on the outside ring. Looking at the stills you can see that the Defiant just fits into the dock on the outside ring, and the Enterprise D is too large to use the outside ring so it has to dock at the end of the arms extending from the outside ring. Look again at the size chart, and you can see that the Sovereign is far larger than the Defiant, and slightly larger than the Galaxy.

I took some other shots to compare several other ships in STO to my Sovereign, and they all look fairly accurate, but DS9 is far too large.

My question to the developers is this: Is this intentional? Is it something having to do with the game mechanics as to why DS9 is so oversized?

My question to the community: Has anyone else noticed this? Has anyone noticed any other size discrepencies in STO?

I have. The shuttles ARE WAYYY TO BIG, and Soverign and Galaxy and many others I think should be re-scaled. PLEASE DO IT


Worried about your ship being too small?

Think about it this way.

The defiant covers most of your screen (it has been zoomed in) but if you fly near an Odyssey, it will take time to fly by. For an Odyssey , it will cover most of the screen, and the defianat will be very small.

THAT! Solves your problem
Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.

I hope STO get's better ...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,499
# 25
03-14-2013, 03:07 AM
there are a few things i would always go by when comparing scale

#1 size of the bridge cake

#2 number of Decks on the official MSD, if available

#3 how many rows of Windows are there?


If a ship with 4 Decks is bigger then a Saucer with 8 Decks or a Bridge Cake is way too big compared to the rest, then something is very wrong.

Keep in mind, Star Trek was shot for Standard Definition TV's, that is not a lot of resolution to work with, the priority is always that a shot looks good, not that it is correct in scale.

Also if you see multiple Models in one shot, that are multiple layers of film cut together from multiple camera passes over stationary Ship Models in front of a bluescreen. -> they never held a Defiant over an Excelsior and made pew pew voices. That happened all in the cutting room.

Oh and the Chaffee Shuttle is the size of a Car, you could park 2 of them inside the Defiants Bridge, i don't see where the problem is supposed to be there.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 145
# 26
03-14-2013, 03:12 AM
people seem to act like in the show there was some hard canon sizes

both DS9 and the Defiant would change scale in the show depending on what the back ground ships where
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,031
# 27
03-14-2013, 03:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Then explain the fact the Bug Ship model had a plate saying the length was 150 meters and also why Martok's BoP was 158 meters?
You got a screenshot of said plate?

Also the "Starship Spotter" gives the BoP at a length of 88 meters while the "Bird-of-Prey Owner?s Workshop Manual" states the Bird of Prey was produced at several sizes (including the K'vort cruiser) at the Martok's BoP hat a length of 139meters.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 28
03-14-2013, 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalspock View Post
I'm not a graphics artist and I never worked for the company that handled the CGI models for the later Star Trek TV shows, but I am extremely skeptical that scaling a model up or down relative to another model takes anything more than a couple of keystrokes. Even if I am in error, it is pretty clear that on the show, that is exactly what they did in certain cases.

The fact is, CGI model or not, in your final screen shot, unless you know that two ships are shown at equal distances from the camera (such as they are both on the surface of a planet next to eachother), all you can establish is the minimum size of one ship relative to another, and that is only if one passes directly in front of the other, otherwise you have no way of even knowing which ship is larger.

Take this shot for instance: http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/8905/320x240alz7.jpg

Since the Defiant passes directly over the Lakota, you know that the Defiant cannot be much bigger than half the saucer section, but you do not know if it is a big ship scraping the hull of the Lakota or an inch long and manned by Leprechauns.

As you may know, the Defiant's size seems inconsistent throughout the show and knowing the value they used in the CGI software for each shot (if they had used CGI from the beginning) would not be likely to fix that problem.
I think you forget the time period we are talking about. CGI and a couple of keystrokes won't fit in the same sentence in the 1990s, any CGI was extremely expensive. DS9 didn't recycle every combat scene just because they were lazy.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,538
# 29
03-14-2013, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
Have you guys thought about contacting Doug Drexler to get a copy of the actual Star Trek CGI Models to use for measurements or to help increase modeling accuracy with the low poly models? I know they used 3D Max for those models, because I got my hands on a copy of the Enterprise-Refit Model they used in the remastery of TMP.
According to Memory Alpha, the size of the Defiant according to the CGI model used in the show was 170.7 m...very close to the 164.5 m the devs settled on.

Ex Astris Scientia has the most comprehensive analysis of the Defiant situation that I've ever seen. In short, there are so many problems, either because the Defiant was resized for an episode, or because Deep Space Nine was, or because some ship appearing on-screen with the Defiant was, I think it's pretty fair to pick just about any size within the wide range provided by the visual evidence as the "correct" one. Picking the most commonly depicted size is a logical way to do it, but it's not necessarily the only way to do it.

On the topic of the CGI models being superior, the Defiant's appearance in First Contact is extremely problematic...it depicts the ship as being in the 50 m range!

Naturally, I don't think this is the same CGI model used in the series, but...well, there it is.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,069
# 30
03-14-2013, 06:15 AM
I am sure that J. J. Abrams will fix the size problem in Star Trek in future
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