Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 15
Does anyone have any insight into the design processs cryptic went thru to arrive at their set up for space combat in this game?

It confuses me for a couple reason.

In Star Trek (The franchise overall) Ships have both directed energy weapons and also some form of projectile. This is nearly universal, other than small civilian ships. They would fire a single beam, or a cannon volley, but rarely 4-8 volleys of anything at once. Not even the gigantic borg cube.

In game, once you get past the initial tiers, which feels the most trek like, ships are free to stick in eight beams and fire and forget (star trek ships are not pirate ships) or 4 (five!) dual heavies and forget about it, completely ignoring the torpedo aspect. And what is with the turrets?

It would seam to me, if they were originally going for a star trek like game ships would have been set up as such:

primary weapon slot: equip an energy beam of your choice / cannon type if your ship supports it. Ships natively have multiple phaser emitters, they already cover the whole ship instead of forward and aft 'arcs' with the one equipped beam.

projectile slot: equip your forward and rear projectiles/mines.

Aux weapons : 'escorts' as they are would need secondary phaser strips to cover the areas outside of the cannon arcs. (see defiant class)


A large galaxy sized cruiser would get a significant bonus to its main saucer phaser bank, its a large powerfull ship. Along with general bonus' to all systems befitting a ship of its size. A Intrepid would not have high weapons bonus, but better science equipment for our non combat gameplay (which we don't really have).

Bops' and Defiant were made to fight, bonus to weapons (and speed) and you could logically follow this to other ships.

If you had ships on (relative) even footing with a main weapon slot, a torpedo tube then take into account ship SIZES and not arbitrary mmo classes, you could effectively balance combat, and your lower ships wound not automatically be useless for the rest of the game. (newer ships have better tech, BO stations, console slots) A Miranda could still fight in the battles of ds9.

As it ended up, who gets to determine a galaxy class ship with no neck is now a science ship. (nebula) or that an akira class cruiser(carrier soft cannon) is an escort. There was only one fed warship. The Nebula is a cruiser with a specialized add on. Why would it have more shields and less weapons than a galaxy class. because there were less 'science' class ships in game that's why.

Why not sort vessels simple by a grouping of primary stats, not trying to force them into 'classes'

Hull
weapons (bonus)
speed
shields
ect.

Other than the apparent total lack of ship shields, this is what star trek space combat should be. What we have now is more a generic sci fi game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWi-pJLO2m4

Ill admit there is one shot of a galaxy class starship with one shot of a 'dual beam' attack from the side, but its the exception not the rule.


So there are my thoughts. What are yours?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 2
03-15-2013, 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ds9fan81 View Post
It would seam to me, if they were originally going for a star trek like game ships would have been set up as such:

primary weapon slot: equip an energy beam of your choice / cannon type if your ship supports it. Ships natively have multiple phaser emitters, they already cover the whole ship instead of forward and aft 'arcs' with the one equipped beam.

projectile slot: equip your forward and rear projectiles/mines.

Aux weapons : 'escorts' as they are would need secondary phaser strips to cover the areas outside of the cannon arcs. (see defiant class)
The end result of that would be balance on the ship class level, as opposed to the ship tier level. Instead of having a few choices of the "top end" ship, you'd have maybe one or two specific classes outshining everything else.

I'm not saying what we currently have is the optimal setup, but in my mind it's far better than a single class outperforming everything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ds9fan81 View Post
If you had ships on (relative) even footing with a main weapon slot, a torpedo tube then take into account ship SIZES and not arbitrary mmo classes, you could effectively balance combat, and your lower ships wound not automatically be useless for the rest of the game. (newer ships have better tech, BO stations, console slots) A Miranda could still fight in the battles of ds9.
Size alone is by no means a foolproof or standalone indicator of what a ship's capabilities were. Also, just because Mirandas fought in the Dominion War, didn't mean they did particularly well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ds9fan81 View Post
As it ended up, who gets to determine a galaxy class ship with no neck is now a science ship. (nebula) or that an akira class cruiser(carrier soft cannon) is an escort. There was only one fed warship. The Nebula is a cruiser with a specialized add on. Why would it have more shields and less weapons than a galaxy class. because there were less 'science' class ships in game that's why.
This is where you get completely off track. Yes, there is absolutely a lot of sleight of hand when it comes to Federation Escorts, notably because only two of them are actually escorts. The rest of them are ships designed primarily as warships (Prometheus, Akira, Steamrunner etc.). Which ties into the point I made above: a warship designed for combat is going to function better in combat than a jack-of-all-trades vessel, size not withstanding.

Secondly, despite the resemblance (and kitbashed nature of the relationship between) the Nebula and the Galaxy, the Galaxy fundamentally outclassed the Nebula as a combat vessel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ds9fan81 View Post
Why not sort vessels simple by a grouping of primary stats, not trying to force them into 'classes'
Because Boff slotting is not something you can leave up in the air or randomly assign without fundamentally changing the nature of a ship.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ds9fan81 View Post
Other than the apparent total lack of ship shields, this is what star trek space combat should be. What we have now is more a generic sci fi game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWi-pJLO2m4

Ill admit there is one shot of a galaxy class starship with one shot of a 'dual beam' attack from the side, but its the exception not the rule.

You're linking to a compilation of Dominion War footage, which many argue is what STO's space combat (especially at endgame) highly resembles.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,009
# 3
03-15-2013, 10:43 AM
It's as much a player issue as anything else. Players want cannons and laser beams everywhere.

Ships generally come with standard loadouts that can actually do quite well once you get out of the 'DHC or nothing' mentality. It's the players that strip them down to follow the min/max 'status quo'. Beam/projectile and primarily kinetic builds can be just as dangerous as "blaster boats", but they're not as simple to use.


Sure, the devs could remove player choice and force us to all use 'standard' setups, but how is that an 'improvement'? I've got some real oddball, and surprisingly effective, setups that I absolutely love to bits and would hate to lose the ability to set them up that way. Furthermore how would ships like the Chel Grett fit into that system? If I'm not mistaken, it was purely a torpedo ship in canon.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 308
# 4
03-15-2013, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ds9fan81 View Post
Does anyone have any insight into the design processs cryptic went thru to arrive at their set up for space combat in this game?


No conscious, sane mind had any role in making the STO combat system.
Its a hack job made necessary by CBS' unwillingness to spend MONEY on the project and by cryptics nature of being hacks. The game engine and subsequently combat system of champions online was re-purposed for the Job of making STO as cheap as possible.

The combat system is fundamentally, on a basic level flawed due to the engine used.


dunno how this happened, they probably never played klingon academy or bridge commander, heck even ST Legacy was a better representation than STO.




oh and will never get fixed since they cant just switch engines.




I wonder when someone makes a star trek game based on eve base engine. Now that is open space.. with stuff to do..... just limit the whole pvp to the neutral zone systems....
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