Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 297
# 1 Question about PVP for Devs
03-14-2013, 02:30 PM
hello, i've been a casual/pretty active PVPer for a while now. mostly karrat system, but always the daily arena/capture and hold. i play on both klink and feddy sides, and now i have a question...

its generally agreed the bugship (jemhadar attack ship) is the most over powered ship in game. it rips apart cruiser/escorts/science without any good way to defend against it, and its generally accepted that unless the bugship is fail, or your extremely good, your going to need 2-3 people to handle it.

now, i have a question, and with the ship being offered again it makes me really curious what the devs think.

this is star trek, right? federation are the good guys, klingons are the bad guys. why is the most powerful ship in game from neither of these factions? i can understand the bugship being GOOD. i mean you have to pay through the nose to get it, regardless of what means you decide to go with, so one would hope it'd be a pretty good ship. however, when it takes 3 really good defiants to take out a single bugship... that's a bit extreme dont you think?

in the show the USS defiant took out hundreds of bugships with ease. they hurt sure, but just one defiant took out quite a number without too much help from the other ships around. how is it in any way accurate that 3 defiants take 5 minutes to make any progress on a ship like that?

not just do i find it to be taking away from the fun, but i also find it very unreasonable, and here's my reasons for this:

it takes away from the fun of a star trek game, where i have a ship i love, ex. the multivector class. love the ship, favorite design in trek. if i take it into PVP i dont stand a chance if a decent bugship comes along. my turnrate feels like half that of a bugship, i have less defense, less damage, less everything. to compete with a bugship, i'd need another bugship, and i'm sure it'd be a perfectly even battle. however why would i want to do that? the MVAM is my ship, do i really have to get a whole new ship thats also T5, simply because the competition is using OP ships? this not just takes away from the fun of PVP, but the game in general. there's no point in doing so much work on a ship when you take it into PVP and even your fleet variant doesnt stand a chance.

another reason i dont like this ship is simple. i've always felt there was a strong balance in the ships. escorts take out cruisers, which take out science, which take out escorts. fly a escort on either faction, and meet a science that knows what it's doing, and i'm sure you'd be ticked off at it very quickly without any way out (unless your a bugship then somehow its immune to fighting 3 science with MK12 gear)
the bugship shatters this balance in my view. it murders cruisers without any help, is easily able to overcome science ships, and of course is the top dog in the escort world. the only ship that comes close is the wells class, another lockbox ship.

i dont mind lockbox ships being powerful, you gotta spend alot to get them, but make it balanced between normal ships and lockbox. when i go into PVP i like to see a variety of federation ships, fly into a force of klingon ships. not a bunch of cardassian, jemhadar, ships not invented yet, and some random ferengi ship, take on a force of almost the same exact ships, except with a few brels on one side biting at peoples nacels.

this is just my opinion, and that of the majority of my fleet. i dont mind a ship able to dish out damage very quickly, i just dont want it to tank better then a deadnought when its about half the size of my ship and i'm in an escort.
Timelords Fleet
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6
# 2 I concure
03-14-2013, 03:08 PM
The only ship I have that has any chance against the jem hadar escort is my bortasqu cruiser, and its only because it's a great tank. However, I feel really cheated when my Andorian escort, which I paid 50 euros for, is getting shot out by Jem Hadar at every turn. Its simply impossible to compete with a Jem hadar escort if I'm not a tank, and I've noticed that most tanks still have a hard time keeping up with them.

I've noticed that players have many complaints regarding different aspects of the game, and personally, this is the only problem I have with the game. I love the new reputation and ship systems. It gives me something to do and look forward to. I also would like to thank the people at Cryptic studies for doing such a great job on a great game but the jem hadar escort really needs to be taken care of.

I understand that lowering its stats would be a bit unfair, so maybe you can consider raising the stats to certain escorts.
I agree with captain pirko that the multi vector should be better than it currently is, not to mention the defiant and sao paolo.

If this reply was read by anyone working at Cryptic studios, I would like to offer my thanks for the best game I have ever played. Keep it up
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,219
# 3
03-14-2013, 03:34 PM
While a JHAS has its benefits, you can fight on (almost) equal standing with an properly build Fleet Defiant. And if you are in a Team and focus fire on the JHAS, its as vulnerable as any other escort. The only real Advantage it has is its turn rate (compared to other escorts), its damage is by no means greater than that of an defiant, its just faster in running and turning which mkes it hard to it. But if it stands still its death like any other escort.

So for on1 you can defeat it, even though its still a challenge. And in a team, its just your normal teamplay to bring it down. When pugging you wont have the letter, so of course its pretty difficult to kill it, and you see more bad players flying a defiant than flying a jhas, so its also obvous, one would see the jhas as something ?godlike, since they are flown in pvp by mostly good players. but those players do not really care about the ship they fly.

Ah yeah: Escort>Cruiser>Science>Escort doesnt work with decent players -1on1- it will always be a draw.
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Last edited by woodwhity; 03-14-2013 at 03:36 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 356
# 4
03-14-2013, 05:56 PM
Yes the jhas is very powerfull but I say keep the things are they are now.

There is a big inbalance between the 2 factions and jhas helps a little to compensate this because it is available to both parts.
What OP is saying is "buff federation escorts so they would be equal to jhas"
Federation has now 3 escorts with 5 tac console,1 escort with 5 fore weapons and a hybrid DBB-cannon thing capable to hit with at least 95k

Kdf has nothing in escort range to compare to federation escorts so almost every kdf pvp-er is forced to use lockbox ships or bops.

If OP really want that the game look more than star trek he should start by asking Cryptic to make more powerfull kdf ships because otherwise in PVP there will be more and more lockbox ships.
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 92
# 5
03-14-2013, 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodwhity View Post
While a JHAS has its benefits, you can fight on (almost) equal standing with an properly build Fleet Defiant. And if you are in a Team and focus fire on the JHAS, its as vulnerable as any other escort. The only real Advantage it has is its turn rate (compared to other escorts), its damage is by no means greater than that of an defiant, its just faster in running and turning which mkes it hard to it. But if it stands still its death like any other escort.

So for on1 you can defeat it, even though its still a challenge. And in a team, its just your normal teamplay to bring it down. When pugging you wont have the letter, so of course its pretty difficult to kill it, and you see more bad players flying a defiant than flying a jhas, so its also obvous, one would see the jhas as something ?godlike, since they are flown in pvp by mostly good players. but those players do not really care about the ship they fly.

Ah yeah: Escort>Cruiser>Science>Escort doesnt work with decent players -1on1- it will always be a draw.
This is singulary the biggest piece of rubbish I've ever read. You cannot compete with a JHAS and thats the point. I just blank the players using them in PvP, firing on other targets and ignore them completely after the game. Not playing this game to support such obvious cheating and abuse of money.

If they cannot stick to the faction they are playing, they are just sell-outs and not worth my time or effort. I do this for all lockbox ships. Never bought one in my life.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 278
# 6
03-14-2013, 10:07 PM
I've made mention of this myself. Not only in the shows, but in STO itself the JHAS is, well, cannon fodder. You destroy it in droves during PVE content, but one flown by a player captain is magically the best thing ever, better than the escorts of either faction.

Nerf the son'ova'beech, bring it into balance with the other lockbox and fleet vessels.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dova25 View Post
"Indignant Klink on a Soapbox
This isn't an Anti-KDF thread, take the angst elsewhere.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 560
# 7
03-14-2013, 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpirko View Post
its generally agreed the bugship (jemhadar attack ship) is the most over powered ship in game. it rips apart cruiser/escorts/science without any good way to defend against it, and its generally accepted that unless the bugship is fail, or your extremely good, your going to need 2-3 people to handle it.
that is not so much true.
escort vs escort, the JHAS is the best ship (I know, I have one), but not against a good debuffer or a good healer.
A good debuffer (sci captain on a science vessel) can weaken the JHAS enough to stop it and sometime also destroy it, and a good healer (eng captain on a cruiser) at least can survive to the bug ship's attack. Much depend on the builds.

Just yesterday my debuffer had a challenge against a JHAS: I did not destroy it, but the JHAS had to fly away from me several times. That guys said me that my build was weaken, but He did not realized that a debuffer stopped him and was near to win.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janewaywarrior View Post
You cannot compete with a JHAS and thats the point.

1 vs 1, I often do it and sometime I also win.

Last edited by eurialo; 03-14-2013 at 11:44 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 789
# 8
03-15-2013, 12:25 AM
Especially with the Jem'Hadar set equipped Bug ships are nearly invincible. They strip my buffs punch through my shields and blow me up in a matter of seconds.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 560
# 9
03-15-2013, 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by szim View Post
Especially with the Jem'Hadar set equipped Bug ships are nearly invincible. They strip my buffs punch through my shields and blow me up in a matter of seconds.

it's only "1% chance to strip one buff while using Polaron Weaponry "

1% to clear only one buff... and the jhas must use one of the worst shields.

The power of a jhas is not in that passive.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,714
# 10
03-15-2013, 12:37 AM
I think its pretty obvious Cryptic tacitly acknowledges the JHAS as (more or less) OP. Why use it as bait over and over to get people to buy doff packs? You'd think the doff pack big prize would be rotate among the various lockbox ships but nope! Its always the JHAS. Cryptic knows how powerful it is and they use that to push sales.

TBH this latest promotion has me worried. I was of the opinion that the Dominion Lockbox might not have sold as well because they so clearly rushed the Kumari (as a ship pack no less!) so soon after it. But 2 or 3 weeks later a JHAS promo??!! Guess the Kumari didn't sell as well as hoped either? from the area around ESD I didn't see the sky full of Kumaris like it was with Odys when that ship came out.

If it was another company I'd say "d'uh! people get their favorite ship and will fight you tooth and nail to stay in it and/or ship collectors can't even get more ship slots or realized they have lots of shiny ships but no new content to use them in, so they stopped buying ships!...OR, they're close to a T5 shipyard, and wonder why they would spend on anything not from it considering the long painful grind they've done to get there?" and that would spur the company in releasing other items for sale that WEREN'T ships.

But this is Cryptic, I would bet their terrible attempt at character unlock outfits as well as its cold reception by the playerbase has pretty much closed off that avenue of revenue as "not profitable enough", so I almost fear what they will try next. What scheme will they come up? Whatever it is, its bound to have as low a value for the costumer as possible. I will be happy to be proven wrong though, not on their sales faltering (as that would be a GOOD thing in pushing them to do something else for a change)but in them responding with a better variety of sales items.
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