Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,420
# 131
03-18-2013, 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomeight View Post
I believe the Defiant was outfitted with special armor as well.
it was outfitted with basic ablative armor; the only thing special about it was it was the first ship to get that armor
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwecaptainsmirk View Post
*reassuringly strokes your hair*
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 861
# 132
03-18-2013, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyedu View Post
This refers to hull damage resistance, which I have no complaints about. IIRC, you can boost shield damage resistance up to 75% (the cap) without any diminishing returns.
In a game environment when the remaining 25% is enough to tear anyone to shreds in the blink of an eye, I don't see a problem with that.

Don't believe me? Spend 20 minutes PUGging PvP in a cruiser. Count your deaths, and come back.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 133
03-18-2013, 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brigadooom View Post
Escorts aren't meant to tank. They should never have been able to.
Escorts have to have a degree of survivability, your proposal is death to Escorts.

Quote:
Give them 0.6. Give them a healthy bonus, perhaps the healthiest between escorts, scis and cruisers, to the armour console, to compensate so they can take a couple hits should their shields go down, enough to pop off a heal or two.
You are talking out of your ass.

In MMO DPS deal with their lack of HP/Armor with movement but we are talking about a MMOs that are melee first and so their ability to get out of range is completely different that STO with space combat being ranged.

You are relegating escorts not to glass cannons but ships that have NO survivability so what we would have would be PvE were you die and die and die a lot because of how PvE works.


Quote:
Scis already have rock hard high shields and decent hull, and Eng have very high and powerful hull and decent shields. Tacs should have low shields and awesome armour resistance for when their shields fail, at which point they beat a hasty retreat.
And of course this is ignoring the fact the only ships that can hull tank are cruisers.

Escorts cannot really do it lacking ths stations for it, I say this adding a "Armor" slot with Escorts having 1, Cruisers having 1-2 and Science Ships having 1-2 would work because it would allow Cruisers to tank better, the whole "too much HP" can be offset by just raising base damage if that is a problem.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,176
# 134
03-18-2013, 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loading159 View Post
some things I noticed in the first few posts that even though I recognize as being fair I still have trouble being happy with .

Giving cruisers a slot for special armor would be awesome, giving science ships a slot for a secondary deflector or a mission module would be great as well, and while escorts do get DHC's I cannot help but feel they get left out of the upgrade party.

first, escorts feds side are the only ships capable of equiping DHC's with a few special exceptions.
while that is a unique ability the escorts do not get a special slot for them.

second, I think giving cruisers warp core slots and science ships secondary deflector slots would be awesome! but it just would not make any sense to leave those slots off other ships.

heres what I think

DHC's already in game, only equiped by escorts
create heavy armor consoles for cruisers that ONLY cruisers can equip
create some new heavy science console or weapon even, im no good at science ships so ill leave that to who ever reads this.


Add three new slots to everyship in the game:

secondary deflector / mission pod
warp core
starship thrusters ( or something more technical )


secondary deflector / mission pod - has a passive that increases effectivness on sci ships
these would have stats to support science ships only, and since escorts / cruiser do not have access to alot of science abilities/high end abilities the science ships will benefit the most from them.


warp core - has a passive that increases effectivness on cruisers
these would have stats to support cruisers only, same as above - science ships and escorts do not have access to high end engineering abilities so they would naturally help cruisers more.


starship thrusters - has a passive that increases effectivness on escorts.
these would have stats to support escorts more, same as above - cruisers and sci ships do not have high end tac abilities so they naturally supprt escorts more.



each of these items could have stats to support the tac, sci, or eng abilities of each ship. but the point is that none of them would break the ships role ( thats why I included the passive above that increases effectivness on the respective ship )
like this one.

dislike ideas about ultra heavy to ultra light for a profession.

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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,531
# 135
03-18-2013, 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
Thanks for starting this discussion.

First, let?s take Warp Cores out of the discussion. If STO gets a Warp Core, it will have little to do with armor.

Here is the bottom line we are discussing internally:

? We want to add a ship armor slot. Having more itemization is good
? Armor means Damage Resistance (to be consistent with ground Armor). Other enhancement bonuses can be available
? We don?t want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
? We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
? Armor could be added as a set piece.
? Armor could offer a ship material change.


So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.

Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.


So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
Either option works for me. I don't mind Option 2, especially where PVP is concerned. How would this work for Carriers? Would they be counted the same as cruisers in respect to heavy Armor slots since they are bigger, bulkier ships?
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 202
# 136
03-18-2013, 04:32 PM
I don't think an armor slot is necessary. Cruisers can already do well what they are intended to do, Survive. Additional armor/survivability is not needed. The issue here is the content we have to play. It is DPS centric. When survivability is not as important as DPS, cruiser captains will always be at a dis-advantage in PVE content. However, you cannot give cruisers more dps because then it would out-balance PVP.

Its this never ending cycle. make some Well rounded engaging content that counts suvivability as much as DPS. The closest thing we currently have is NWS, but even in that, DPS is still favored more than survivability as experienced escort captains can survive enough. and the DPS of cruisers isn't enough.
STOP THE
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacofangs View Post
We planned on doing it next weekend, but then we saw your post and were like, "Dude, we should totally move that up a week! Tee Hee!"
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,787
# 137
03-18-2013, 04:33 PM
Overall I like the idea of more itemization, including Armor Slots, Warp Cores, and Secondary Deflectors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.
I wouldn't complain about this per se, but in general I don't like this option. Unless it was released simultaneously with similar special new slots for the other ship classes. Secondary Deflectors for Sci Ships, ??? for Escorts, etc. Also, there's already grey area on some ships that aren't quite cruisers, but aren't quite other things either, especially on the KDF side. Destroyers come to mind. Also, I wouldn't be too happy if new set pieces were released just for cruisers without similar options for sci and escorts (and others). Seems unfair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
I like the idea of adding the Armor Slot to every ship. I think instead of, or possibly in addition to, having Heavy Armor for Cruisers only, you could have an Armor Multiplier like Shields. Escorts get 0.5-0.6 Armor, Sci get 0.9 or 1.0, Cruisers get 1.1-1.3.

And if Cruisers only get Heavy Armor, and Escorts get DHCs, what do Sci get "only" of? And what about KDF ships like Battle Cruisers, they already have DHCs, do they also get Heavy Armor, as they are Cruisers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
Yes. Assuming I get something for my existing Engineering Resistance Consoles. And I don't want GPL or EC. Let me turn them in for Refined Dilithium. I spent Dil to get them, I should get that Dil back, in equal amount -- Dil that I could apply to the new Armor-Slot item, or allow us to some how trade them in for "vouchers" or "marks" that we could spend on Armor Slot items.

You need to further consider what to do with Eng Consoles. The Power ones got nerfed by half back in S5, so they're useless now (take off that nerf to restore their usefullness). Crew protection consoles are pointless cuz crew is pointless. RCS consoles are ok, but don't help much on the ships that actually need them (would be better if the buff was just a flat +X Turn rate instead of a percentage of base Turn). EPS Consoles are the only reasonably good ones besides the existing Armor ones.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 872
# 138
03-18-2013, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post


So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
Absolutely.

Although I'd definitely like to see existing armor consoles converted directly into 'armor slot items' or the like, and have more 'new' engineering consoles created.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,855
# 139
03-18-2013, 04:36 PM
What about refunding armor engineering consoles with armor consoles that are not bound?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 120
# 140
03-18-2013, 04:51 PM
I like option 1 as long as science ships get a similar slot for shields. I think this would go a long way toward eliminating the excessive tankiness of escorts vs. sci and cruisers.
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