Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 79
# 211
03-20-2013, 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
Thanks for starting this discussion.

First, let?s take Warp Cores out of the discussion. If STO gets a Warp Core, it will have little to do with armor.

Here is the bottom line we are discussing internally:

? We want to add a ship armor slot. Having more itemization is good
? Armor means Damage Resistance (to be consistent with ground Armor). Other enhancement bonuses can be available
? We don?t want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
? We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
? Armor could be added as a set piece.
? Armor could offer a ship material change.


So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.

Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.


So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
What about option three. if ever ship gets three armor slots.

The difference is for ever armor you slot you lose turn rate and speed.

A cruiser would be able to slot 2 armor slot with no penalty while a science ship could mount One.

An escort can mount zero with out a penalty.

If cruiser mount none or one armor slot they would get turn rate and speed bonus. Since they less then normal amount.

after there got to be pros and cons.

Examples Let say each armor effect turn rate by 2 and speed by 5.

Crusier with no armor has +4 to turn rate and +10 speed.
Cruiser with one armor has +2 to turn rate and +5 to speed.
Cruiser with two armor has 0 and 0 effect it turn rate
Cruiser with three armor has -2 turn rate and - 5 speed


Science ship with no armor has +2 to turn rate and +5 speed
Science ship with one armor has 0 and 0
Science ship with Two armor has -2 turn rate and - 5 speed
Science ship with three armor has -4 turn rate and -10 speed.

Escort with no armor has 0 to turn rate and 0 to speed
Escort one armor has -2 to turn rate and -5 speed
escort with two armor has -4 to turn rate and -10 to speed
escort with three armor has -6 to turn rate and -15 to speed


* 2 to turn rate and 5 to speed where just random number pull from know where.
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Still waiting for cryptic to fix the season 7 bug that took away my out fit option that I had. That I am still missing despite having tier 5 omega and all the equipment and unlocks. I am sure this still be a bug in season 9.

Last edited by theparanoid; 03-20-2013 at 04:17 AM. Reason: add examples
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 158
# 212
03-20-2013, 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theparanoid View Post
What about option three. if ever ship gets three armor slots.

The difference is for ever armor you slot you lose turn rate and speed.

A cruiser would be able to slot 2 armor slot with no penalty while a science ship could mount One.

An escort can mount zero with out a penalty.

If cruiser mount none or one armor slot they would get turn rate and speed bonus. Since they less then normal amount.

after there got to be pros and cons.

Examples Let say each armor effect turn rate by 2 and speed by 5.

Crusier with no armor has +4 to turn rate and +10 speed.
Cruiser with one armor has +2 to turn rate and +5 to speed.
Cruiser with two armor has 0 and 0 effect it turn rate
Cruiser with three armor has -2 turn rate and - 5 speed


Science ship with no armor has +2 to turn rate and +5 speed
Science ship with one armor has 0 and 0
Science ship with Two armor has -2 turn rate and - 5 speed
Science ship with three armor has -4 turn rate and -10 speed.

Escort with no armor has 0 to turn rate and 0 to speed
Escort one armor has -2 to turn rate and -5 speed
escort with two armor has -4 to turn rate and -10 to speed
escort with three armor has -6 to turn rate and -15 to speed


* 2 to turn rate and 5 to speed where just random number pull from know where.

I suggested this earlier but immediatly found it would make it extremely easy for escorts in an STF, they could just stack that hull armor and hull tank and shield tank the whole time pushing cruisers and sci ships even more out of the picture for STF.
Captain Moe
U.S.S. Prometheus
Fleet Multi Vector Advanced Escort
Resistance is futile
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,652
# 213
03-20-2013, 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loading159 View Post
I suggested this earlier but immediatly found it would make it extremely easy for escorts in an STF, they could just stack that hull armor and hull tank and shield tank the whole time pushing cruisers and sci ships even more out of the picture for STF.
This post is endemic of what's wrong. Don't wait to be GIVEN a role. Carve one out for yourself. Figure out how to not be "irrelevant", if you can't maybe sci vessels and cruisers aren't for you?
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,984
# 214
03-20-2013, 07:11 PM
This would only ever work IF You change the game entirely, around how threat is generated.

You would have to make it so DPS is not the main threat generation as it is now.

Even with Embassy Sci consoles that lower threat by 68% each, I still gain threat over nearly every Cruiser I have teamed up with in PVE.

The only times that changes, is when the Cruiser pilot focuses solely on DPS alone, which then makes them squishy and defeats the purpose of what a cruiser is meant to do. Tank damage.

This is a game wide problem created by muddying the lines between Tank, Damage and Healing.

It cannot be solved by putting a plaster over the problem....

My Chars = 1 Main (Fed Eng) & 5 Mules for fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitsune424 View Post
Here is your ticket to the USS Stupidity, Third class, four tacks on the chair, rules state you MUST sit on the chair, no standing, or hovering above the tacks, thank you have a nice day
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 158
# 215
03-20-2013, 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
This post is endemic of what's wrong. Don't wait to be GIVEN a role. Carve one out for yourself. Figure out how to not be "irrelevant", if you can't maybe sci vessels and cruisers aren't for you?
usually I do not post these but, did you even read the post I quoted?

Im trying to say that even though the escort turn rate would be heavily reduced it wouldnt matter for STF because you dont have to turn really. a bunch of scorts could just sit there and tank all day with 3 more armor slots
Captain Moe
U.S.S. Prometheus
Fleet Multi Vector Advanced Escort
Resistance is futile
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,436
# 216
03-20-2013, 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunfrancks View Post
The only times that changes, is when the Cruiser pilot focuses solely on DPS alone, which then makes them squishy and defeats the purpose of what a cruiser is meant to do. Tank damage.

This is a game wide problem created by muddying the lines between Tank, Damage and Healing.
That is always a problem iddinit.
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HI HO, HI HO. OFF DUTY SLOT NEEDS TO GO!

"It's better to ask a dumb question, than to remain an idiot forever."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 180
# 217
03-20-2013, 08:39 PM
? We want to add a ship armor slot. Having more itemization is good[/quote]
I don't agree, We're getting to the point where we have to much now. Never mind the way this translates to me is (we need more things to put on the LOBI/DIL/CSTORE)

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
? We don?t want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
Then Don't do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
? We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
Then buff the cruisers in question. Problem solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
It depends, If its not for sale, is a drop, and doesn't cost me more than what it would to craft, yes. If its going into the CSTORE, LOBI or Dilithium Markets, then more than likely no. Unless you're willing to have them valued at no more than 5.00 worth of ZEN, and be account bound
Next time you log in, ask yourself this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
If you can't have fun, then what is the point?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 39
# 218 Everyone wins
03-20-2013, 09:16 PM
I tweeted this earlier, but I want to expand a bit.

Armor = x% CritD resistance
Heavy Armor = X% CritH resistance and x% CritD resistance

Then apply a small global CritH and CritD buff to all appropriately enhanced weapons in the game (e.g. CritD x 1 = 25% critical severity up from the current 20% and CritH x 1 = 2.5% critical hit up from current 2%)

My reasoning. Let me show you it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
Thanks for starting this discussion.

First, let?s take Warp Cores out of the discussion. If STO gets a Warp Core, it will have little to do with armor.
For the moment, OK. But see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
Armor means Damage Resistance (to be consistent with ground Armor). Other enhancement bonuses can be available
Meh. Consistency is overrated. You have bunches of perfectly fine engineering consoles out there already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
We don't want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
See the global buff on the CritH and CritD stats. These weapon modifiers are currently underutilized and unappreciated. See any sale of weapons on the exchange. The CritH and CritD weapons are always cheaper. Acc modifiers command a premium price - mostly because of the inherent CritH bonus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
Gotcha covered. While every other ship in the game gets a touch squishier (I'm looking at you, escorts... and to a lesser extent the sci ships, but see below), cruisers will not be as susceptible to the CritH buff due to their Heavy Armor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
Armor could be added as a set piece.
Absolutely. See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
Armor could offer a ship material change.
Bring it. More customization for ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
Not necessarily. Make the new thing do something new. And fix the imbalance in the weapon bonus types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
Again, this conflicts with the design goal mentioned above. By transferring hull resistance from console slots to armor, every ship gets AT LEAST 2-3 white consoles worth of hull buff. This is regardless of whether or not the player currently chooses to equip an armor console. Focusing on the tail end of the DPS curve - high spike damage - cuts down a major vulnerability of cruisers but doesn't affect the other two classes. In fact, it makes them a little bit squishier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticgeko View Post
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
I got your options right here. This is the "below" part I was talking about when I said "see below" all those times.

Make the Armor part of a 4 piece set including a Warp Core, Computer Core, and Targeting System.

Warp Core = power bonus. Bonus shield power for everyone (your warp field generators are shut down). Tactical warp cores get bonus weapon power, Engineering cores get bonus engine power, Science warp cores get bonus auxiliary power.

Computer Core = Team CritH buff/CritD resist. Advanced Computer Cores for science ships get CritD buff/CritH resist as well.

Targeting System = CritD buff for either beams, cannons or projectiles. Advanced Targeting Systems for escorts get a CritH buff as well.

Go crazy with the set bonuses. But make those underused weapon modifiers worth something again.

Consider this is your personal invitation to come on Priority One to debate this idea. How's tomorrow look for you? James always has a comfy chair waiting for you, Ironass Rivera.

Tony

Last edited by kineticimpulser; 03-20-2013 at 09:22 PM. Reason: minor clarification
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,436
# 219
03-20-2013, 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyuui13 View Post
I don't agree, We're getting to the point where we have to much now. Never mind the way this translates to me is (we need more things to put on the LOBI/DIL/CSTORE)
MADNESS!! You can never have too much stuff! NEVER!!
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HI HO, HI HO. OFF DUTY SLOT NEEDS TO GO!

"It's better to ask a dumb question, than to remain an idiot forever."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 260
# 220
03-21-2013, 12:01 AM
Well if we have to have "Heavy Armor"... Then let it be for cruisers only.

Science ships (generally) got Sensor Analysis when the masses claimed that they didn't do enough damage.

Escorts (generally) got Dual Heavy Cannons to pew with extreme prejudice.

Cruisers got....? crippling energy drain from beam weapons

Yes I realize that "Armor" is one of those things that can be put on anything (Wisest armored tribble anyone?). Yet in the end, not counting the eventual hybrid ships, there has to be a draw to cruisers other than nostalgia and "It's more canon."


It is worth mentioning however we have piles of "useless" consoles that don't even get used much. Why would a player stack +4 mk XII power consoles?
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