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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,898
I enjoyed Scurry's recent thread and poll on 'cheese'. I dunno if it was inflated towards certain answers or not, so I won't try and debate that here.

What I am curious is, at what point does an item/tactic become cheese, and whether or not it is also considered OP or not. So at what point is the figurative 'line in the sand' crossed when it comes to seeing it in PvP?

Also, if something is considered cheese, do you consider it overpowered? Can something be cheese and not be OP, or can something OP not be cheese? Is something cheese and/or OP only if it is broken/bugged?

Examples:

Cheese, but not OP: AMS. While maybe in the past it could've been OP due to a real lack of consoles, which more came from them eventually allowing any ship to equip it, instead of just sticking to Fed cruisers, plus with all of today's mega-high level resists and such, using AMS, while cheese, isn't as strong as it once was.

OP, but not cheese: BO + DEM (with DOFF) builds. This one is a bit more biased, I'll admit it now. However, while it can be OP in a way, the OPness really comes from the Marion DOFF (which I have a love/hate relationship regarding). Beam Overload stacking itself is nothing new at all, you just used to use weapon batteries with it. It can be considered OP in the regards of using the DOFF, which mimics one of the captain abilities an engineer has, and even being able to triple stack BOs.

OP and cheese: Graviton pulse, especially specced and/or used by a whole team. This is one of the worse ones IMO because of how strong it can get. Yes, it can be cleared with an engy team, but if you have a whole team using these, it won't matter because they can and will chain them, pretty much shutting a team down if they do it right.



Most of this has been my opinion, but I figured it might be good to ask everyone when you consider something 'cheese'? (Also, Scurry, not trying to take your idea for a thread or anything, I just really liked the discussion that came from that thread, and wanted to continue it some more)

If you disagree, that's ok by me, I know that everyone has different thoughts on what's bad and what isn't bad, which is the whole point of the thread.


Why are all of STO's EPs named 'Steve'?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 128
# 2
06-01-2013, 02:01 AM
To me, something is OP if it is objectively, universally better than all other alternatives, all else being equal. For example: the Rom Boffs--they're OP because there is no reason for a different Boff to be chosen, and there are no alternative Boffs that are comparable.

This doesn't necessarily mean that OP things need to be nerfed. However, if not nerfed, it does mean that other alternatives need to be brought up to par somehow. Although, in taking this approach, the issue of power escalation and homogenization can become an issue.

As far as cheese goes, that may be a bit more ambiguous. In general, I'd say cheese tends to be powerful, and easy--an IWIN button or combination, more or less. Alternatively, it might be exploiting something that is known to be working better than intended. In general, it also tends to be associated with something that is bought, hence pay2win.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 270
# 3
06-01-2013, 02:59 AM
Above post nailed my definition of OP, but I have a different opionion on cheese. Cheese is anything that makes the players experience less enjoyable (annoys a player). So as the orginal poster said, AMS (imo that is extended to almost all placate and sramble abilties), anything OP (its unfair and therefore annoys a player, so OP is a catergory of cheese), also many of the doffs that make ordinary abilties (some of which are on the line of being cheesy) more annoying/OP.

Obviously you need to have something annoying in a game for it to be challenging, therefore one of the most important aspects of game design is to have something annoying but not too annoying. Concerning STO, it has done a great job with this in PvE (except for the tholian NPCs that disable your energy weapons and Donatra cloaking way too much in KASE (although it does make it more challenging, but it still feels too annoying, esp since the actual zone where it one hit kills you is not aligned with the visuals (therefore you get hit when you think you are outside and don't get hit sometimes when you think your inside))), as I was saying STO has other than those issues (well those are my personal ones anyway) done well with this in PvE, however PvP is a different story.

Just to put that out here the players already know what I am saying, but Cryptic does not, this post is here (why, why this whole thread is here) to fuel the curiosity of the orginial poster and to speak to Cryptic (said that to hopefully stop someone from saying that what I am saying has been partially said).

I relise I have gone off topic (although have I actually, cheese and the state of PvP are almost one in the same), (just thought it was worth mentioning, I backspaced about 10 times here trying not repeat what has been said on the forums a million times), since the issue with PvP is that not a lot of people are playing which means that it will be developed less and less until everyone is gone (at one point everyone has to get sick of it, its human nature, its just a matter of time). This is because the learning curve is far far far to steep, and half of the few people who cross it get ripped from PvP by cheese. I just got a great idea: to make a thread asking why people buy lockbox ships and other things with real money http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post10541751 That concludes this post I suppose.

Starfleet M.A.C.O. KDF Honour Guard
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,501
# 4
06-01-2013, 06:58 AM
Generally, I've viewed OP as a relative power threshold and cheese as a corny ability.

The worst of the OP abilities would be analogous to a keystone species in ecology where the very existence dramatically changes the ecosystem itself. In this game's case I'll use elite fleet shields as an example. They allow for any ship to easily obtain max shield resists. This reduced the need for cross repairs, reduced/eliminated many DoT pressure builds, reduced the glass in glass cannons, etc.

The "worst" of the cheese to me isn't even PvP, it is watching a Borg drone or some other unfeeling NPC be "seduced" via a blown kiss mid combat by a boff. For space it's space walls and ET's instant massive hull repairs (again this isn't a power thing, just thinking of a team following Scotty around and instantly repairing/restoring massive hull damage). Pretty much all the time altering stuff (it was cheesy in most of the shows as well).
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,193
# 5
06-01-2013, 07:17 AM
To me, it's when you've got something that can do more than 1 thing for "free".

Example: AMS. Scramble, Jam, and then some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
If PvP were dead, then Cryptic would stop adding things to kill it. So obviously it's not dead, and that's why Cryptic needs to keep adding things to try to kill it.

Seriously, go through and look at how many things have next to zero use for PvE but make PvP that much worse, eh?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,570
# 6
06-01-2013, 07:36 AM
After that survey, I've gotten used to the idea that cheesiness and OP'ness are separate things. However, something that is OP is frequently cheesy to me.

Personally, something that is OP is obviously better than all other alternatives in most or nearly all circumstances. On the other hand, cheesiness is more of a personal feeling, a feeling that you have been robbed of a chance at having fun or acquitting yourself well. This results in a key difference, which is that whether something is OP or not tends to be a fairly objective measure as compared to cheesiness, which is more of a personal feeling.

Also, while something that is OP should generally be frowned upon, especially in the queues, something that is cheesy is up to you personally. You may feel that a specific tactic has made it rather unfun for you, and you can choose to express that, but bear in mind that these are opinions, and generally do not cause true unfairness.

Then again, we have to remain open-minded in all circumstances, even if many of us feel that something is OP. There may be facets and cases to be made that we do not realize, and so, in a perfect world, it is always best to listen to others first.

Even then, we have to remember that we can't control what others do. All we can do is make our displeasure known, and try to persuade. Beyond that, all we can do is attempt to adapt to circumstances.

Examples of OP:
(already fixed) Chain-critting transphasic cluster torp
Voldy
Graviton Pulse (A single console, targeting multiple opponents, with a long-term effect)

Examples of cheese:
Doffed VM

Quote:
(Also, Scurry, not trying to take your idea for a thread or anything, I just really liked the discussion that came from that thread, and wanted to continue it some more)
A-OK with me. More discussion is always good. Just as long as the discussion is civil and doesn't devolve into name-calling, raging, trolling, and fleet politics.
Take it easy!

Ishmael@scurry5: A Nibbling Sci
"Squeak?"

Last edited by scurry5; 06-01-2013 at 07:38 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 293
# 7
06-01-2013, 07:37 AM
The words 'cheese' and 'spam' are thrown around all the time, usually by people who are hard pressed to have any independent thought or opinions they didn't cut and paste from someone they hold in high regard in the pvp world. or someone who gives them ec.

These people, and their comments, are cheese.

OP is anything there really is no counter for, or a minimal of counters,

The first thing that comes to mind are team drain builds, insulators have almost no effect if you need them at all.
Another, in my opinion, are aceton assimilators. These because their hull strength is as much as a bird of prey, 19k last I looked, coupled with the fact that they shoot down many of the most commonly used torpedo's in the game.
One almost needs a coordinated alpha strike to clear the screen of aceton assims 'n even then they're out again in moments. They wouldn't be 'op' imo, were it not for the 19k hull strength.

People refer to everything a sci captain does that is not healing as cheese or spam.
If you fly a carrier, your pets are spam, your feedback pulse is spam, your viral matrix is spam (if its the least bit effective) your cluster torps are spam (even though slotting 2 monotaniums renders them null and void)
But we cant be assed to change our builds to suit the situation.
Much easier to throw out catch all words like 'spam' and 'cheese' and "omfg lol *insert ability here*" while waiting to respawn.

If I follow your definition of cheese as anything that annoys a player, (lol btw)
I am throroughly annoyed by dual heavy cannon fire and multiple copies of crf.
Many people I know are annoyed by jem'hadar attack ships using rcs accelerators that you just cannot bring into your firing arc long enough to get a full cycle off.

So they're spam then. Or when a bird of prey decloaks on my aft and fires off three subsequent fully powered beam overloads. That's annoying, so its spam.

Spam is no excuse for getting your proverbial arse handed to you.
buck up, adapt. stop crying.
sorry your level 20 fighter gets his ass kicked by my lvl 20 magic user.
should have made your saving throws.
nub.

**facepalm**

Edit: (not really sorry)
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 287
# 8
06-01-2013, 08:06 AM
In the same realm. I think p2w has lost meaning in this game. There is way too much available form the zstore and lock boxes.
Nerf Klinks, Buff Rommies
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,230
# 9
06-01-2013, 10:33 AM
To me, anything is OP if you have an ability that lets you point, shoot and score some kills without any intelligent effort. A kill is well deserved if strategy is used, not just plowing through the resists and hoping your target drops dead.

Kills should never ever be easy against competent captains. Unfortunately, the opposite happens when most console abilities are spammed by the entire team (premades for instance). Disable, point and shoot.
STO is the BEST game ever and the players absolutely LOVE it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
the echo chamber that is this isolated PvP community is likely to do nothing but stir up additional ire among the small number of players that come here.

Last edited by deokkent; 06-02-2013 at 12:31 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
# 10
06-01-2013, 10:40 AM
I would say that it is the lack of skill/effort/thought that defines 'cheese', whereas 'OP' is just what it says on the tin - something overpowered, that really has no counter.

Some things can be both cheesy and OP, of course.
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