Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,166
# 141
04-07-2013, 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwgacy1 View Post
The NPCs all follow the same path every time, I've never had an issue getting them in EWP, and I'm using a Regent with no turn rate buffs or RCS consoles. If there's someone in game that can't manage to lay EWP across a predetermined path then they have bigger problems than how much their Cruiser sucks, mostly because the problem's the other side of the monitor.
You got me there. Though non determined paths are harder.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 197
# 142
04-07-2013, 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
An easy mistake is to think that you can heal the dead.

All the people whining for nerfing the escorts are fighting escorts that are fully kitted out with reputation items and abilities. I am really sick and tired of PVP ruining the PVE. I wish PVP was removed from STO.

If you take those away, the escorts are suddenly not that tank-able any more. Even with purple mark XII shields, they die easily without rep tier V sets.

Taking the armor consoles away would result in instant deaths. Instant ones.

Again... you can't heal those. Oh. And escorts running away from enemies with evasive manovers is NOT tanking the cube.

But Cryptic seems to think that Escorts do too much damage, so they are making the tactical captain new traits for tanking.

So with the human buff nerf, I expect tacticals in cruisers.
Take off pvp? Im a roleplayer and even I think thats an extremely terrible idea. And howis pve ruined exactly, you can finish every objective with any combinations of career ship combination of appropriate level, its not like you HAVE to finish everything in 4 minutes or less right.

I think the solution is to disintenivize dying a lot (which i observe even in speedrunning 5 tac teams) maybe a longer initial respawn? Make injuroes start at the major level? Havea
repair minigame? Feedback on how, uch you are dying? A, modifierto
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,166
# 143
04-07-2013, 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chandlerashari View Post
Take off pvp? Im a roleplayer and even I think thats an extremely terrible idea. And howis pve ruined exactly, you can finish every objective with any combinations of career ship combination of appropriate level, its not like you HAVE to finish everything in 4 minutes or less right.

I think the solution is to disintenivize dying a lot (which i observe even in speedrunning 5 tac teams) maybe a longer initial respawn? Make injuroes start at the major level? Havea
repair minigame? Feedback on how, uch you are dying? A, modifierto
I understand your first part. All the people seem to whine so much because their rainbow beam boats get beaten up there that its beyond annoying, and I don't want my stuff nerfed due to their noobness.

As for the second part... is that even English? From what I see I think you mean people should die more in STFs? I am sorry if I decrypted it wrong, but that is a mess of miss-types and the grammar is not exactly super either.

Bad idea, noobs die too much already.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,690
# 144
04-07-2013, 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
I understand your first part. All the people seem to whine so much because their rainbow beam boats get beaten up there that its beyond annoying, and I don't want my stuff nerfed due to their noobness
Hang on a minute, I happen to fly a tac/scort (a pretty damn good one at that) from time to time and I think they are too powerful, they can tank too well and anyone who disagrees with that statement needs to learn to play (I don't like saying it but the truth hurts). You know whats going to happen with these traits right? All the Tac/scort players with a functioning brain are going to grab the tanky ones because they don't need the extra damage output straight up cos they'll have more life meaning more damage before death meaning more DPS.

It also happens that I know some of the cruiser pilots who complain about escorts in game and some are damned good players.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,166
# 145
04-07-2013, 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Hang on a minute, I happen to fly a tac/scort (a pretty damn good one at that) from time to time and I think they are too powerful, they can tank too well and anyone who disagrees with that statement needs to learn to play (I don't like saying it but the truth hurts). You know whats going to happen with these traits right? All the Tac/scort players with a functioning brain are going to grab the tanky ones because they don't need the extra damage output straight up cos they'll have more life meaning more damage before death meaning more DPS.

It also happens that I know some of the cruiser pilots who complain about escorts in game and some are damned good players.
I have been trying to tank elite tactical cubes , and you just can not do it with an escort, even one kitted out to tank. I tried. Fleet patrol escort with Adapted Maco set and 4 armor consoles.

Also, are you complaining about escorts that are fully kitted out with best gear? Because those should be very powerful. End game gear in all games tends to make your character very powerful, as it should after all the time and effort you put it in getting it.

As for the latter part.... either your definition of "damned good" means that they know which end of the ship is fore or aft, or that they get too butthurt over the fact they don't win all PVP matches they enter. So they are propably very far from any version of "good" in my book.

I always tell of these threads to my guild mates, who laugh at people whining about cruisers and science vessels not being good enough, while escorts being OP. That whole thing is just a lie preparated by bad players I'm afraid, who want an invincible ship that kills everything in 10 kilometers around it.

I watched a PVP they did, and a Wells brought down a Kumari in a 1-1 fight. The catch? I attacked the Kumari, and it took a beating that would have blown up a tactical cube in an elite STF.
I dare not imagine how hard I would have failed against the Wells. The wells had a science captain, the Kumari a tactical one.

The catch? Its a role play guild, not a heavy PVE or PVP one.
Though some of them do get tips from a very good PVE guild... Risa squadron perhaps? Something with Risa in it, I'm sure of it.

Maybe you should try asking them for a better build. This is a good advice. Take it.
There are some quite deadly cruisers out there, and they are nigh invincible. With a little bit of research yours can be one too.

Derp, even I can try to show a good cruiser build.

Last edited by tpalelena; 04-07-2013 at 05:46 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,690
# 146
04-07-2013, 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
Maybe you should try asking them for a better build. This is a good advice. Take it.
There are some quite deadly cruisers out there, and they are nigh invincible. With a little bit of research yours can be one too.
Why would I want to seek out a built that is inferior to my own?

MY Tac/scort will sail through a Tac cube on elite on a standard day, it's only a bad day when I take a one shot and die, my eng/cruiser (beamboat) puts out around 5k DPS over an STF (maybe you should see it before telling me how fail it is) and my Sci ship... well that's a work in progress waiting for PvP bootcamp to restart.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 61
# 147
04-07-2013, 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
You know whats going to happen with these traits right? All the Tac/scort players with a functioning brain are going to grab the tanky ones because they don't need the extra damage output straight up cos they'll have more life meaning more damage before death meaning more DPS.
The last time i was on Tribble you could actually take ALL space traits at once and still have one free slot for a racial/ground trait and guess what, tacs are getting tankier (-acc proc on all weapons, possibly stackable from more than one player, what was the person who made it up thinking?).

When I read this topic (or any other concerning the fact that the Engineer class has become practically useless and Science Captain's last hope is in SubNuke in pvp...) one question bothers me - who do so many people (most likely using tac/escorts) resent the idea that future end game content may require teamwork? This game's a MMO, you're supposed to interact with other players to achieve some ingame goals.

What concerns me even more about the community is the fact that most players when asked, whether they'd like the trinity model to be somewhat strengthened, reply that "we don't want to be forced into a particular role". Hmm where's the logic in that? Currently the game FORCES the player to fulfill the damage dealer role. You can choose to mix it with another role(like cc/healing/tanking) but you'll most likely end up with a character that is "underperforming" (from gameplay's point of view). Personally, I don't see any harm in requiring players to be better teamplayers to succeed as long as it is limited to Elite difficulty content. This way if you want to be lonewolfing in a MMO, you'll have the normal difficulty content to play. Oh wait I forgot, that might hurt the average escort Joe's ego...

I was hoping that the introduction of Warp Cores might actually bring some balance but a highly customizable boost to power levels(and in most cases to survivability) isn't going to help science vessels and cruiser to cross the line of actaully being useful. As I've been once told by a "pr0" player, "you're wasting your potential as a player in that cruiser, you should switch to an escort". Surely, I am wasting my potential but in all MMOs I've enjoyed the "support/tank" role the most. Sadly, in STO, "pew pew" is what most people enjoy.

Last thing I'd like to mention is the fact that a lot of people seem to be comparing terrible cruiser builds with above-average or even very effective escort builds. They come to the conclusion that cruisers are "Defective by Design". They're certainly not. The problem is that the niche in which a cruiser(and/or a science vessel) could thrive does not exist at the moment (well, there's HOSE... but it's definitely an overkill in terms of a "ridiculous meatbag npc design", not counting the Queen, she'd be fine if not for the fact that she seems to be choosing low-threat targets first).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 107
# 148
04-07-2013, 10:24 PM
As a cruiser captain by choice for two years now, Id like to comment in regard to this subject. I feel the sentiment expressed that engys and scis are uncompetitive compared to escorts is a justifiable one. However, I feel this is due pretty much exclusively on the system of reward vs dps. If im not actually playing with friends in an STF or Fleet Action etc, I'll never heal a tac/escort. Yes thats a pretty awful thing to admit that I'll hold off in my heals, but think of it from my perspective; It doesnt benefit me, long term, to heal an escort. I gain from their deaths because their time in respawn gives me that much of an edge in dps and tanking (think: Gorn Minefield). The whole system of STO revolves around dps, everything. Rewards are oftentimes respective of your damage. I also dont use threat gen either, again little to no benefit to me. I dont see why I should take the pounding for tacs, only for them to gloat about how much damage they did. Im sure that sounds resentful, I apologise for that.

Nevermind the tractor repulsers you used as a sci that saved cure space elite = Doesnt matter, not factored.

Nevermind the torrent of abuse your ship takes via threat = doesnt matter, not factored.

At the end of the day, all what ultimately matters is the damage you can do.

Instead of nerfing escorts, lets advocate a change in how the game recognises success. DPS isnt everything, this should also be reflected in the number of times an escort blows up. Give them the incentive not to die. Die = less reward.

One Year and Three months waiting for Fleet Galaxy X - "Technical Difficulties" Since 8th Feb 12.
Landmark Technical Difficulties Dates: 13/01/12 - 8/11/12 - 14/11/12 - 14/12/12 - 26/04/13
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
# 149
04-07-2013, 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
I have been trying to tank elite tactical cubes , and you just can not do it with an escort, even one kitted out to tank. I tried. Fleet patrol escort with Adapted Maco set and 4 armor consoles.
Just because you can not, it does not mean that it is not possible.

Quote:
Also, are you complaining about escorts that are fully kitted out with best gear? Because those should be very powerful. End game gear in all games tends to make your character very powerful, as it should after all the time and effort you put it in getting it.
powerful != tank. As a damage dealer, it is your job to kill your target before it kills you. It is not your job to avoid or to tank anything. That is the role for escorts. So you equipment let you make more damage but does not allow to be more tanky.

Quote:
I watched a PVP they did, and a Wells brought down a Kumari in a 1-1 fight. The catch? I attacked the Kumari, and it took a beating that would have blown up a tactical cube in an elite STF.
I dare not imagine how hard I would have failed against the Wells. The wells had a science captain, the Kumari a tactical one.
This shows clearly how less knowledge you have of the game mechanics. It is easy with a scientist to hinder an escort in such a way that this cannot win. But this advantage is gone if you play in bigger teams or against enviroment.

Back to Topic: Escorts should make high burstdamage, but for it can also take very easily damage. Nevertheless, currently her survival ability is too good.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 395
# 150
04-07-2013, 11:54 PM
Every ship can tank in a pve mission (elite STFs too), but not all ships are equally good.

Simply pve missions are repetitive, so you learn how to do it and after a while you stop failing...

If you think escorts are so good tanker (or at least good as much as a cruiser), ask yourself while there are a lot of tactical captain flying cruisers.
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