Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 151
04-08-2013, 12:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eurialo View Post
If you think escorts are so good tanker (or at least good as much as a cruiser), ask yourself while there are a lot of tactical captain flying cruisers.
That's easy: cruisers were the primary ship for TNG and TOS, and Voyager and Defiant were always stated to be non-quintessential Starfleet ships. Thus, most people who come into this game wanting the quintessential Star Trek experience automatically think they need to go for cruisers, and only realize later, if at all, the mechanics of the game that make that a sub-optimal choice. Personally, it wasn't until I was a month or so into NSTFs that I discovered chained EPtS, one of the most basic and essential tricks in the game, and it wasn't until I'd played ESTFs for some time that I became fully aware of the issues we're discussing here.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,177
# 152
04-08-2013, 01:45 AM
Chaining emergency power to shields has only one problem... there is an increased cooldown on them. If it was only 15 instead of 30, that would be better.

So. If you can tank an elite tactical cube for the full duration of the fight (at least 2 minutes, assuming 4 noobs ) please, post your build.

And by tanking, I mean facing the cube the whole time and shooting non stop with DHC-DC weapons. Proof me.

Also, group matches are not viable for balancing, since there are too many variables. Invalidates the argument right there. You don't blame lack of teamwork on a ship class.

As for tacticals piloting cruisers.... the recent tribble traits are tanking ones.
Since typically cruisers have too little threat generation* it makes sense to put the tactical in a cruiser, because that way he survives more. I have seen tacticals in cruisers doing pretty good damage.

But I have seen engineers in escorts. If the cruiser threat generation is not fixed, that may very well be a viable tanking style.


*Game mechanic fail, I'm not blaming the players. Cruiser ships should get at least a doubled threat generation. Escorts need to be "durable" since cruisers got a hard time generating threat.

Give Cruisers an innate ability that makes every npc in the map always target them, and I promise you all escorts will go for pure DPS.

Last edited by tpalelena; 04-08-2013 at 01:50 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 153
04-08-2013, 02:10 AM
What's the problem with chaining EpTs ? Just pair it with another EptX power and use 2x purple dmg control doffs. There, pretty reliable to way of having 2 EpTx powers with 100% uptime and extra power to two subsystems.

But I'ts true, that on ships like Defiant you would give up Lt. eng slot. However, having shields is usually more crucial than having a hull heal as others can toss hull heals on you.

There is no problem with threat. There are embassy consoles with -threat and +threat as well as a skill to spec for. A decent cruiser with these can always have agro. These are pure PVE bonuses.

Beside, not sure why would anyone want to park and shoot their ships, as the acc overflow from borg torps does much greater crits with that. But that might explain, the sudden explosions I see when I do STF.

You can negate most enemy fire with simple EptS + Tactical Team combo.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,177
# 154
04-08-2013, 02:41 AM
The trouble is, dual weapons require a forward facing. So most of the time, you have to face the enemy you shoot at , or you will be as useful as a shuttle.

You can blitz in circles around the enemy with turrets or beam arrays....but then you better go with a cruiser anyway.

A decent cruiser that is specialised for tanking is hard to find, as a lot of people want them as damage dealers.

I use 3 projectile, 1 warp core engineer and 1 damage control engineer, all purples.

I got Hazard emitters 1, transfer shield 2, ETPS 1, EPTW 1 (used to be another EPTS), Auxiliary to structural 1 (for damage resistance debuff) , and two tactical teams.

As for the ship, its a Fleet Patrol Escort with 4 hull armor consoles, and the Adapted Maco set. I used a Field Emitter and a -threat console, but I swapped the latter out for the zero point conduit because I was still always gerenating the most threat.

I got subspace device in a device slot for extra tanking.

I run with 125 weapons and 75 shield power. Weapons are 3 dhc, 1 romulan torpedo, 2 turrets and 1 cutting beam.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 119
# 155
04-08-2013, 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
The trouble is, dual weapons require a forward facing. So most of the time, you have to face the enemy you shoot at , or you will be as useful as a shuttle.

You can blitz in circles around the enemy with turrets or beam arrays....but then you better go with a cruiser anyway.

A decent cruiser that is specialised for tanking is hard to find, as a lot of people want them as damage dealers.

I use 3 projectile, 1 warp core engineer and 1 damage control engineer, all purples.

I got Hazard emitters 1, transfer shield 2, ETPS 1, EPTW 1 (used to be another EPTS), Auxiliary to structural 1 (for damage resistance debuff) , and two tactical teams.

As for the ship, its a Fleet Patrol Escort with 4 hull armor consoles, and the Adapted Maco set. I used a Field Emitter and a -threat console, but I swapped the latter out for the zero point conduit because I was still always gerenating the most threat.

I got subspace device in a device slot for extra tanking.

I run with 125 weapons and 75 shield power. Weapons are 3 dhc, 1 romulan torpedo, 2 turrets and 1 cutting beam.
I just to just sit nose against the Cube (or Gate's) hull and blast away until it was dead, only if I messed up would I have to fall back to heal. As long as you keep moving whilst nosing against the Cube you'll maintain some defence so won't take a one shot, just watch out for the tachyon beam: that close in there's a lot of spam on screen and the tachyon beam is one of the first things to not render so you have to keep a close eye on the shield display to see if you're being drained or not as the auto fired 50k+ torpedoes hurt when you have no shields.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,177
# 156
04-08-2013, 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwgacy1 View Post
I just to just sit nose against the Cube (or Gate's) hull and blast away until it was dead, only if I messed up would I have to fall back to heal. As long as you keep moving whilst nosing against the Cube you'll maintain some defence so won't take a one shot, just watch out for the tachyon beam: that close in there's a lot of spam on screen and the tachyon beam is one of the first things to not render so you have to keep a close eye on the shield display to see if you're being drained or not as the auto fired 50k+ torpedoes hurt when you have no shields.
Thanks, I try to do that. Luckily my old rig can still render the blue shield drain beam. I usually also pop the Adapted maco's ask energy field ability right before doing an alpha strike on any boss.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 157
04-08-2013, 03:07 AM
Yes they require forward facing, but when you are under fire noone says you must "tank" it through. Dead escort does no dps. And in your build, you should have no trouble surviving long enough to get past 10km so the cube switches target to someone else and then make a loop with guns blazing. Yes, you will loose few seconds of dpsing, on the other hand, if you die, you loose much more time.

The problem is that you can actually build escort that can "tank it through", so cruiser tanks are not needed. And it's not that hard. Leadership change in S9 will affect it a little, but as main tanking potential is through shields - not hull, it won't matter much.

I specifically use +threat consoles on my steamrunner, because I know, I can tank better than most cruiser pilots I meet, with the exception of cruisers that actually manage steal my agro - good tanks. And I would prefer the STF is over asap, so I can do something more interesting.

There is no need for cruiser tanks, as the average escort surviability in PvE is pretty high.

There needs to be fundamental change in STFs so all three roles are equally needed. Right now, you just need 5 escorts with clue.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 403
# 158
04-08-2013, 03:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
Chaining emergency power to shields has only one problem... there is an increased cooldown on them. If it was only 15 instead of 30, that would be better.
you can use 2x EPtS or you can easly chain 2 different EPtX using 2 purple dmg crtl officers
we have several good space sets, covariant, resilient, regenerative shields...
only 3 points in starship powe insulator are a great help against tetryon weapons. there is a skill named threat control and there are science consoles to increase/decrease your threat generation. use tss and rsp to regenerate your shields, you have also batteries and doffs to have a chance to regenerate shield using BFI. There are skill and consoles to reduce hull damage, and ability to repair quickly (AuxtS has only 15 secs cd and do not share a CD with TT or HE).
A cruiser is the best ship to tank, if you really want to tank.


Quote:
And by tanking, I mean facing the cube the whole time and shooting non stop with DHC-DC weapons. Proof me.
that is your problem... tanking is not just sitting and watching the cube firing at you... attacking a cube is not simply firing with your weapons...


Quote:
Also, group matches are not viable for balancing, since there are too many variables. Invalidates the argument right there. You don't blame lack of teamwork on a ship class.
again... if you think to play alone, than you are playing the wrong game. And if your problem is playing a random stf, do not play random stfs... use publicelitestf channel to fing decent players.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,177
# 159
04-08-2013, 03:33 AM
Dalnar, thanks, you put some points in.

Eurialo, I don't want to tank. I would prefer a cruiser to tank, but they seldome can. I already use Aux to Structural.

But with an escort, you need to face forward to the target. Of course, I can always hit evasive manovers and fly out of its range, but that is hardly constructive for the team
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,137
# 160
04-08-2013, 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eurialo View Post
that is your problem... tanking is not just sitting and watching the cube firing at you... attacking a cube is not simply firing with your weapons...
Tanking is pretty much sitting and watching the cube fire at you. You are still firing your weapons, but they are not doing as much damage as the escorts (granted, unless you have a fail PUG...).

If you have points in threat control, that's when tanking becomes a vital part of a team. You are drawing the aggro (and gaining the damage resistance bonus), keeping aggro away from the fragile escorts, and showing off all at the same time.

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