Empire Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 317
# 201
06-03-2013, 08:43 PM
Thing is most STFs are time based. and what gets it done faster in most cases is higher dps. Rewards for tanking/healing/cc are lower than quick-melting-kabooms and pew-pews
Until that changes, threads like this will always pop up.
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We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!

-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 202
06-03-2013, 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldicephoenix View Post
Thing is most STFs are time based. and what gets it done faster in most cases is higher dps. Rewards for tanking/healing/cc are lower than quick-melting-kabooms and pew-pews
Until that changes, threads like this will always pop up.
Well, that plus the fact that sci abilities really can't do much to lock down an opponent, certainly not relative to the damage capability sci ships lose. You could use Tachyon 3, CPB3, and TR3 on a cube with full Aux and Flow Caps skill and not even notice the difference (and you can't fit all those abilities on the same ship). The effect of CSV1, on the other hand, would be immediately obvious, even with single cannons and 75 weapon power. Shield drains should drain a significant quantity of shields, and energy drains should have a noticeable effect on the damage numbers coming from the target's energy weapons, with Siphon 3+TR2 fully shutting down even a tac cube for the duration of the effect (actually, I think it shouldn't take that much, but that's open for some debate). Threads like this will keep popping up until that is the case.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 317
# 203
06-03-2013, 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
Well, that plus the fact that sci abilities really can't do much to lock down an opponent, certainly not relative to the damage capability sci ships lose. You could use Tachyon 3, CPB3, and TR3 on a cube with full Aux and Flow Caps skill and not even notice the difference (and you can't fit all those abilities on the same ship). The effect of CSV1, on the other hand, would be immediately obvious, even with single cannons and 75 weapon power. Shield drains should drain a significant quantity of shields, and energy drains should have a noticeable effect on the damage numbers coming from the target's energy weapons, with Siphon 3+TR2 fully shutting down even a tac cube for the duration of the effect (actually, I think it shouldn't take that much, but that's open for some debate). Threads like this will keep popping up until that is the case.
Yup.
The Borg npc's shield drain for example is pretty much effective against player shields but vice versa the same is pretty much useless or not very effective even with full aux power and appropriate builds.
Better procs for subsystem targeting would be nice as well.
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We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!

-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 204
06-03-2013, 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starsvoid View Post
A lot of misinformation in this thread.

I tank PvE in my fleet Varanus pretty much every time I load into an STF. It's very, very rare that a DPS build has enough DPS to override my aggro. And if they do? Well... I can toss my TSS's and HE's on them instead of me, no biggie. Meanwhile, I'm still shieldstripping and crowd controlling LIKE A BOSS!
It's all about threat generation.

/ Well, at least I was controlling like a boss until the borg spheres got nitrous , but anyway...
I love the Varanus, I really do, and I love when one is there to make my job easier, I really really do, but that thing cannot even BEGIN to deal the damage of an Escort. Also shield stripping power from a Science Vessel is a joke compared to shield stripping power of 3 DHC's and 3 Turrets on a competent Escort or one BO 3 from a pair of Dualies. Heck even the Torps the Escorts fling around do far more shield drain than say Tickle Beam III or Charged Fail Burst III. (There were days of Old when they were great... Oh how I miss those days...)

The problem is that you do not NEED to be in a Cruiser or Science ship to tank effectively. All you NEED is an Escort style ship with as much damage as possible. I mean many said the Kumari could not tank and it was just all DPS and therefore no good but I have easily tanked everything under the stars with mine. I used to tank Elite Tact Cubes in my B'REL of all things. So there is no need for huge hulls, massive shields, or a million healing powers to tank effectively and the faster you KILL the enemy the less you need to tank and the faster you get the objective. Thus, as stated, the problem.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 88
# 205
06-04-2013, 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasukurobi View Post
I love the Varanus, I really do, and I love when one is there to make my job easier, I really really do, but that thing cannot even BEGIN to deal the damage of an Escort. Also shield stripping power from a Science Vessel is a joke compared to shield stripping power of 3 DHC's and 3 Turrets on a competent Escort or one BO 3 from a pair of Dualies. Heck even the Torps the Escorts fling around do far more shield drain than say Tickle Beam III or Charged Fail Burst III. (There were days of Old when they were great... Oh how I miss those days...)

The problem is that you do not NEED to be in a Cruiser or Science ship to tank effectively. All you NEED is an Escort style ship with as much damage as possible. I mean many said the Kumari could not tank and it was just all DPS and therefore no good but I have easily tanked everything under the stars with mine. I used to tank Elite Tact Cubes in my B'REL of all things. So there is no need for huge hulls, massive shields, or a million healing powers to tank effectively and the faster you KILL the enemy the less you need to tank and the faster you get the objective. Thus, as stated, the problem.
The JHAS only make that gap all the more apparent. When was the last time all factions (Fed, KDF, and RR) saw a super awesome science ship or cruiser available? Sure it's ungodly expensive on the Exchange, but any Tac officer worth his or her salt would shell out the needed EC to get that badboy to replace whatever they currently have.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,045
# 206
06-04-2013, 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldicephoenix View Post
Yup.
The Borg npc's shield drain for example is pretty much effective against player shields but vice versa the same is pretty much useless or not very effective even with full aux power and appropriate builds.
Better procs for subsystem targeting would be nice as well.
Keep in mind that a lot of Science skills seem to be balanced on two things:

1. PvP.

2. Tactical Captains in a Science ship or science-oriented escort (MVAE comes immediately to mind) using APA, GDF, FoMM with them...

On that note, let's say a well specced Tachyon Beam III (primary science shield drain) does 5k shield damage over it's ticks...

On the average PvP escort target, losing 5k off each shield facing is ~ if not >50% of the shields.

Against a Borg Cube with 100k shield facings, 5k isn't even enough to nudge the bars on the target icon...

Same with GW III. Granted, it could do 12 quantums worth of damage, but when it takes 20 to kill a probe...

Almost seems that if they're gonna keep this wild spread between players and NPCs, they might want to shift over to percentage-damages instead of fixed damages...
Well, with the upgrade announcement leaving NX and Connie fans in the dust again, can we restart / revisit the T5 Connie and NX threads - since they will no longer be "truly" endgame ships... (after we get the T5 versions, it'll be time to see them added to the T5U upgrade charts too...
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 748
# 207
06-04-2013, 10:02 AM
indeed there are some massive issues with STO's combat.

Big ships should have massive staying power, and frankly should be packing way more firepower then they are. An escort class should NOT be able to compeate with a cruiser, or even a SCI ships for DPS. It's a flaw of the design process for the game. Canon says cruisers are the king of the mountain.. STO plays otherwise. One of the reasons I am displeased with this game.

oh, by the buy..end game may be escort dominated, but leveling up is done faster with a sci or cruiser..better staying power against the AI playing solo. The reason for this is skills and powers.. not the ships..

Easy way to nerf escorts and bring them into line with by canon they should be...

Reduce Bridge officer..and reduce bridge officer ranks availible, and the amount of weapons they're packing. Still dangerous ships... but reducing them to no more then 3 forward weapons, and 2 aft weapons would go a great way toward drawing the ships back to where they should be in canon. Reducing BOFF's to the a Lt Commander being the maximum BOFF rank on an escort would also work to bring the ships damage and abilities back into line.. By the time someone makes captain they should be moving into one of the big ships...

Honestly, I firmly belive that at tier 5 thier should be no escorts. The ships hulls are just to small to pack in that amount of firepower and capabilities in anything aproching logic or realism.. Go look at the capabilities of blue water naval ships of the second world war for a comparison.. Little ships, like a Patrol Torpedo boat (PT).. can deal massive damage, but cannot survive more then a single good hit, if that. They utterly depend on thier small size, and high speed to avoid damage.

I do hope that someday Cryptic decides to bit the bullet and redesign ahip combat from the ground up into something that makes a great deal more sense. Right now it doesn't, and while enjoyable at a visceral level, is phenominally unsatisfying at the intellectual level.. Or to put it in simple word.. It Does Not Feel Right. It Is a Crappy Simulation Of Star Ship Combat.

And its been like this from the day the game launched.
Release 8.5 "STO The Next Generation"

Let the happy old bug stomping commence, along with refinement toward enhancing each factions play experience!
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,362
# 208
06-04-2013, 10:38 AM
It won't happen, but I still think 'escorts' should have 3/2 weapon slots. Their turn rate combined with DHCs will still cause them to outdamage 'cruisers' and 'science ships' - just not as excessively as they can currently.

raiders - 3/1
escorts - 3/2
destroyers - 3/3
battlecruisers - 4/3
cruisers/battleships/dreadnoughts - 4/4

Not really sure about science ships and carriers - probably stick with 3/3 as they're not typically able to utilize weapons very well(Vesta and temporal ships being the main exceptions).

Thing is, outside of the technical nightmares of retroactively changing that, the lines are already becoming too blurry(Chel Grett, Jem Dread, Kumari, etc.) and cruisers would probably become nearly unkillable in PvP.


Either way, "combat revamps" are almost always disastrous when it comes to MMOs, so I suspect this will always be a 'coulda-shoulda-woulda' situation.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 317
# 209
06-04-2013, 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
Keep in mind that a lot of Science skills seem to be balanced on two things:

1. PvP.

2. Tactical Captains in a Science ship or science-oriented escort (MVAE comes immediately to mind) using APA, GDF, FoMM with them...

On that note, let's say a well specced Tachyon Beam III (primary science shield drain) does 5k shield damage over it's ticks...

On the average PvP escort target, losing 5k off each shield facing is ~ if not >50% of the shields.

Against a Borg Cube with 100k shield facings, 5k isn't even enough to nudge the bars on the target icon...

Same with GW III. Granted, it could do 12 quantums worth of damage, but when it takes 20 to kill a probe...

Almost seems that if they're gonna keep this wild spread between players and NPCs, they might want to shift over to percentage-damages instead of fixed damages...
Yeah, I heard that its was because of PVP the sci guys got hit with the nerf.
Percentage based damages might be a better option considering the disparity in PvE/PvP.

WoW kinda faces the same issue. It got even more complex with Resilience and then PvP power. Part of the reason why I hate it when MMOs have both Pve and pvp because to balance one, the other gets blown out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!

-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 88
# 210
06-04-2013, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldkhemaraa View Post
indeed there are some massive issues with STO's combat.

Big ships should have massive staying power, and frankly should be packing way more firepower then they are. An escort class should NOT be able to compeate with a cruiser, or even a SCI ships for DPS. It's a flaw of the design process for the game. Canon says cruisers are the king of the mountain.. STO plays otherwise. One of the reasons I am displeased with this game.

oh, by the buy..end game may be escort dominated, but leveling up is done faster with a sci or cruiser..better staying power against the AI playing solo. The reason for this is skills and powers.. not the ships..

Easy way to nerf escorts and bring them into line with by canon they should be...

Reduce Bridge officer..and reduce bridge officer ranks availible, and the amount of weapons they're packing. Still dangerous ships... but reducing them to no more then 3 forward weapons, and 2 aft weapons would go a great way toward drawing the ships back to where they should be in canon. Reducing BOFF's to the a Lt Commander being the maximum BOFF rank on an escort would also work to bring the ships damage and abilities back into line.. By the time someone makes captain they should be moving into one of the big ships...

Honestly, I firmly belive that at tier 5 thier should be no escorts. The ships hulls are just to small to pack in that amount of firepower and capabilities in anything aproching logic or realism.. Go look at the capabilities of blue water naval ships of the second world war for a comparison.. Little ships, like a Patrol Torpedo boat (PT).. can deal massive damage, but cannot survive more then a single good hit, if that. They utterly depend on thier small size, and high speed to avoid damage.

I do hope that someday Cryptic decides to bit the bullet and redesign ahip combat from the ground up into something that makes a great deal more sense. Right now it doesn't, and while enjoyable at a visceral level, is phenominally unsatisfying at the intellectual level.. Or to put it in simple word.. It Does Not Feel Right. It Is a Crappy Simulation Of Star Ship Combat.

And its been like this from the day the game launched.
No way in hell is Cryptic gonna follow through with this, it would take far too much time. Nevermind that your proposal is just gonna turn it from Star Trek: Escorts Online, to Star Trek: Cruisers Online. Your solution isn't even that, it's a very ham-handed attempt to lower the reliance on Escort DPS brought on by Tac officer abilities and try to make Cruisers more appealing.

Trust me, I'd love to be able to fly a Cruiser without going all Aux2Batt build using a beamboat w/ 2 torpedoes (Fore and Aft), but I don't see that happening at all. It would take too much time and money for Cryptic to even remotely consider the idea.

Instead, they need to create separate values for PvE and PvP and stop giving Borg/Elachi/whatever ships crazy hp and damage with one-shot mechanics. No amount of staying power is gonna let you survive a blast from that Lance shot in Hive Onslaught. If they made it so optionals weren't on a time-limit, there'd be less overall need for dps as well. The Borg Spheres alone just laugh all over GWIII at it's best.

Don't bring up Canon either, CBS says the game isn't Canon, not to mention we can be assimilated by Borg on the ground and just get hit with a respawn screen after death. There's also the metric tons of torpedoes that everyone fires in just one fight. I mean have you seen TSIII while using Photon Torps and facing a massive number of enemies in your firing arc? That alone would be all the Torps used in TOS and TNG.
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