Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 486
# 71
03-27-2013, 03:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deokkent View Post
Eh, if only you knew what an escort can do with a lieutenant commander sci station. Or a jem hadar attack ship with the jem hadar space sets? Or the playable raider kdf ships, which aren't really escorts but do amazing damage with the right debuff sci powers.
I Know...

I have a fed sci toon on a wells and several tact toons both fed and kdf... the kdf one has a jhas...

1) having a lt cmd sci bofs is not like having several sci boffs with at least a cmd one. Think about what you can do using a couple of the same ability so that the second has a smaller CD. My sci toon can continuously turn off your systems, slow, clear buff, debuff, heal itself and also destroy your ship if you are alone... no matter if you have a JHAS. Using only a lt cmd station is not the same.

2) the jem'hadar space shield is the worst one... using engine and deflector is good (if you use polaron weapons), but that does not make you invulnerable. However actually also the kumary can have a great dps... but pvp and pve are not a matter of dps only.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 486
# 72
03-27-2013, 03:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
/doublefacepalm


You still don't get it. The game NOW has FORCED people into DPS as the only viable option.
if so, then tell me how my sci toon on a wells build to be a pure debuffer in pvp can destroy a tactical cube "solo"... it not easy but it' is easier than using my tactical toon on escort (both fleet tactical escort retrofit or jhas).
Rihannsu
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 573
# 73
03-27-2013, 04:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the1tigglet View Post
First of all, you cannot and do not instastop anything with GW please stop telling fibs. (or provide a video of this happening because the rest of us are not seeing that with science skills sorry) and second, control the enemy is fine so long as our skills work, and let me tell you half the time they don't because they've nerfed science skills.
Might be for you, but you didn't understand what I said. You think I said GW does the damage, but it does, by sticking the enemies together and causing warpcore explosions to deal more damage. It's not straight damage, such as somebody said that subnuc does more damage than attack pattern alpha does because it negates the resistances of enemy in pvp. It's like you were forgetting the team entirely. Also, I don't see sci skills any bad, just eguip few consoles to boost them and it's all good to go.
Say the word, it saves the world.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 928
# 74
03-27-2013, 04:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxfire View Post
Might be for you, but you didn't understand what I said. You think I said GW does the damage, but it does, by sticking the enemies together and causing warpcore explosions to deal more damage. It's not straight damage, such as somebody said that subnuc does more damage than attack pattern alpha does because it negates the resistances of enemy in pvp. It's like you were forgetting the team entirely. Also, I don't see sci skills any bad, just eguip few consoles to boost them and it's all good to go.
That is part of my point, that because they've made it so that they nerfed the science skills due to the team buff abilities of the tactical that soloing science is severely nerfed and shouldn't be it's a poor balance design imo. They should have coded the tactical buffs to not mess with certain science skills instead of nerfing science skills across the board like they've done.
I would like for the devs to open a poll/feedback thread on what exactly the players would like to see in the near future for the game.

Last edited by the1tigglet; 03-27-2013 at 04:44 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,727
# 75
03-27-2013, 11:19 AM
eurela,

This is PvE!

If you want my opinion, support ships in PvP are awesome, actually required for chance at victory. But this is a pve thread, posted in pve gameplay, please don't go off topic.

PS: The wells starship is an escort.

PSS: I actually went on stowiki.org to check on wells class stats, it's considered a sci vessels lmao. That was lulzy .
Reality is WAR
KHG Klingon Honor Guard

Last edited by deokkent; 03-27-2013 at 11:24 AM. Reason: more details on the wells class
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,727
# 76
03-27-2013, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpalelena View Post
Oooooh another big bad whine thread about bad players who can not have good builds, and are now doing the nerf cry because they want all the dps handed to them.
I doubt you actually read any of the posts, I also doubt you know what the topic is. Thank you for your contribution but no one is asking for a nerf, we're commenting on sto content and how it caters only to the dps crowd thus ending the roles of pure sci and tanks, worsened by the fact that escorts are very capable of debuffer and tanks. Again thank you and now unless you have something fruitful to say please do move along.


For your information, I fly escorts or escort hybrids only . I have no problems debuffing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eurela
if so, then tell me how my sci toon on a wells build to be a pure debuffer in pvp can destroy a tactical cube "solo"... it not easy but it' is easier than using my tactical toon on escort (both fleet tactical escort retrofit or jhas).
Wells class is another example of cryptic trying to cater to the dps crowd, those universal boff slots gives it really good offensive capabilities. But that's beside the point, in stf, all you need is an ability to take down shields, then hit the hull with everything you got. Who do you think will be really good at that? Do you think it's beyond the ability of an escort to take down a shield facing of a stf boss? Alpha strike, pattern beta (debuff), maybe a little drain with polarons, and just pummel the hull. Dps dps dps dps ad nauseam.
Reality is WAR
KHG Klingon Honor Guard

Last edited by deokkent; 03-27-2013 at 12:05 PM. Reason: response for eurale
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 486
# 77
03-28-2013, 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deokkent View Post
eurela,

This is PvE!

If you want my opinion, support ships in PvP are awesome, actually required for chance at victory. But this is a pve thread, posted in pve gameplay, please don't go off topic.

PS: The wells starship is an escort.

PSS: I actually went on stowiki.org to check on wells class stats, it's considered a sci vessels lmao. That was lulzy .

"eurialo" not "eurela"... Eurialo is the italian for Euryalus, a character of Vergil's Aeneid



2nd... Even in pve sci ships are awerson and really usefull. I do not remember how many times I saved the optional in ISE stopping spheres (think about a team with a lower dps or a noob ignoring the 10% rule). And if a sci ships can help you in pvp debuffing your opponent, them it can also help you debuffing in a pve match. Yes, I know that if you have dps you do not need sci ships in pve, but that does not mean sci ships are useless.... I think the truth is that building a sci toon/ship is harder than building a tactical toon/escort.
Moreover since we have the hyperplasma torpedo is really simple having dps (think about a train of plasma torpedo)

3th...
the wells is not an escot, not because it is classified "science vessel", but because it hasn't the turn rate of an escort and there are sci vessels with greater turn rate, it can't use DC or DHC, it has 2 universal station but still can't have a tactical cmd station, it does't have the +15 weapon's energy bonus... several differences that make the wells very different and not as good as an escort (if you want dps).



however it's also true that you can use the 2 universal station as tactical ones, but if you want higher dps you better use a real escort.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 151
# 78
03-31-2013, 01:32 AM
The main imbalance is not of ship capabilities, but of learning curve.

Aggro is generally the easiest to learn. It is pretty straight forward what you should be doing at any moment in a battle.

Tanking and healing and debuffing require knowing a lot more about what is going on at any given moment. You need to take in and process far more information.

Now aggro still would benefit from all that extra information and understanding of their options, while not as necessary to them it is one of the things that will separate a good player from an amazing one.

One of the huge reasons people are seeing this imbalance is because of the learning curve. They are thinking of the game in a more narrow and aggro-centric way. Ideas such as spacing and zoning and trapping and timing are weaker concepts to them.

STO is an incredible deep and complex game, with loads of information thrown in your face and all sorts of options available to you with both immediate and subtle effects on the game.

I have been gaming in some variety or another since the 80s, and it is my experience that those who complain about balance the most are those who understand the game the least.

It isn't to say there is not imbalance, however even if there is I would still challenge people to try and think differently about the game. Why are you complaining that Escorts are doing all the killing in the mission? Isn't that their job?

This comes from someone who has run science since she started. I appreciate the added difficulty. It isn't difficulty because of imbalance, just due to a more complex role. The role of a Tank or Sci vessel is not to do damage,but to facilitate damage to be done. My Vesta can do a lot of damage; but its main goals are to heal, buff, debuff, trap, and distract. Tanks are there to draw aggro to keep the aggro alive. Sci/Healers are there to supplement the tanks ability to tank and throw a monkey wrench into the opponents mechanism of killing you.

Your impact on the battle is often very subtle. There is a lot of measure of your worth which is not based on DPS.

If your complaint is your Sci vessel cannot do enough damage, then I ask why your main goal for your sci vessel is to do damage in the first place?

I remember an epiphany I had playing Street Fighter IV a while ago. When choosing between the two Ultras available to my character, I would pick based on what suits that match more. In matches that I was picking the second Ultra I found I seldom if ever used it,so I assumed it had no impact on the match and switched back to Ultra 1. Something I found easier to land. However now I was losing these matches more.

Why?

Because just having Ultra 2 available force my opponent to play in a way that was weary of it. I wasn't using it because they were limiting their gameplay to avoid it. By using Ultra 1, I lost that subtle control.

Most of the players complaining here would have switched to Ultra 1 and not realized why they were suddenly losing. They would be on the forums complaining about game balance issues.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,033
# 79
03-31-2013, 03:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by opheliadraegonne View Post
The main imbalance is not of ship capabilities, but of learning curve.

Aggro is generally the easiest to learn. It is pretty straight forward what you should be doing at any moment in a battle.

Tanking and healing and debuffing require knowing a lot more about what is going on at any given moment. You need to take in and process far more information.

Now aggro still would benefit from all that extra information and understanding of their options, while not as necessary to them it is one of the things that will separate a good player from an amazing one.

One of the huge reasons people are seeing this imbalance is because of the learning curve. They are thinking of the game in a more narrow and aggro-centric way. Ideas such as spacing and zoning and trapping and timing are weaker concepts to them.

STO is an incredible deep and complex game, with loads of information thrown in your face and all sorts of options available to you with both immediate and subtle effects on the game.

I have been gaming in some variety or another since the 80s, and it is my experience that those who complain about balance the most are those who understand the game the least.

It isn't to say there is not imbalance, however even if there is I would still challenge people to try and think differently about the game. Why are you complaining that Escorts are doing all the killing in the mission? Isn't that their job?

This comes from someone who has run science since she started. I appreciate the added difficulty. It isn't difficulty because of imbalance, just due to a more complex role. The role of a Tank or Sci vessel is not to do damage,but to facilitate damage to be done. My Vesta can do a lot of damage; but its main goals are to heal, buff, debuff, trap, and distract. Tanks are there to draw aggro to keep the aggro alive. Sci/Healers are there to supplement the tanks ability to tank and throw a monkey wrench into the opponents mechanism of killing you.

Your impact on the battle is often very subtle. There is a lot of measure of your worth which is not based on DPS.

If your complaint is your Sci vessel cannot do enough damage, then I ask why your main goal for your sci vessel is to do damage in the first place?

I remember an epiphany I had playing Street Fighter IV a while ago. When choosing between the two Ultras available to my character, I would pick based on what suits that match more. In matches that I was picking the second Ultra I found I seldom if ever used it,so I assumed it had no impact on the match and switched back to Ultra 1. Something I found easier to land. However now I was losing these matches more.

Why?

Because just having Ultra 2 available force my opponent to play in a way that was weary of it. I wasn't using it because they were limiting their gameplay to avoid it. By using Ultra 1, I lost that subtle control.

Most of the players complaining here would have switched to Ultra 1 and not realized why they were suddenly losing. They would be on the forums complaining about game balance issues.
I find your knowledge of STO somewhat lacking and leading you to false conclusions.

1) aggro as you call it, DPS as I call it. First off any ship currently in PvE can pull this role if utilizing the proper gimmick be it plasma beams/rom beam, rommie torp spam, or the old standby of DHC. Which is top dog I have not yet concluded but all are so off the wall powerful I don't think it matters much.

2) Tanking & healing in this game is very simple. If damage mitigated + avoided + healed > incoming = Win. Mitigate? Shield resists (EPtS+TT). Avoid? Bonus defense (Yo-Yo, APO, don't be a dink). Healed? High passive regen (leadership boff, shield power) and/or proc (Shield Distro Doff).

3) Debuffing? Impart negative resist (APB I love thee, SS, FoMM) + Accuracy Overflow (holds) = win.

4) Zone control? Really TBR is not that complicated nor hard to take.

This game is about as simple and basic as it gets. The only thing that even remotely complicated is how terribad the documentation is making game knowledge extremely valuable and hard to come by.

Really how difficult is it to mash your space bar that you keybind everything to while pointing your nose at the enemy Yo-Yoing or zooming around going weeeee in circles?

Infact I would say if anything this game is too basic, too simple. Once you have a basic understanding on how it does it's math and how to bind spacebar your done.

There is no timing required. Just build the ship half decent and spam the enemy till it explodes. No deep synergies beyond slap as many modifiers on things as you can.

I would love to see a reason beyond the lols to build a ship for hull tanking. Or shield stripping. Or shield penetrating into hull. Maybe a situation where a power drainer could shine instead of them either being pointless or insanely OP. A reason to take even half of the potential boff abilities. A reason not to just spam abilities the moment they come off cooldown. That would be fantastic. Sadly I don't PvP so I doubt I ever will.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 151
# 80
03-31-2013, 03:46 AM
I think you are wrong. the more I play this game, the more complicated it actually gets. Spacing and zoning is a huge part of combat. I think you may be guilty of oversimplifying the game.

I am relatively new to STO, specifically. But have been playing tactical games and other forms of competitive games since the 80s. Both tabletop and computer. This game is extremely rich and complex with a vast amount of things to consider during a battle. When a game is simple, then most of the time that you learn something new it will make the game simpler. Very little I learn in this game makes it simpler.

By the way ; discrediting my argument solely on a lack of experience in this specific game is an Ad Hominem-circumstantial. It is a logical fallacy. While it is true that I may not know a lot about STO specifically, that doesn't mean I do not know enough about game balance to be able to recognize it.

While I will certainly be wrong on specific facts of this specific game, my overall statement about balance and how players react to it is valid. It comes from almost 30 years of experience.

You will also note I specifically stated this game may very well have a balance issue, I was just addressing how people were responding to it and how ill equipped most who are critical of the game's balance issues probably just do know how to properly gauge that balance. I have seen a lot of games made actually imbalanced because designers responded to their calls for re-balancing rather than listen to the suggestion of more skilled players.
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